What will an IU diploma be worth in 10 years?

[CampingJosh]

A couple months ago he stopped by the office to go to lunch with some of my coworkers and mentioned that they are now requiring ANY 4 year degree to be considered. Doesnt matter if your degree is in underwater basketweaving and is irrelevant to your job performance/skills, you need a degree to apply.

I remember that BS back in the early 2000s. Went to a job fair at the Indiana Convention Center and started to walk into the IT field room and there was a big sign that said in effect "college degree or GTFO. Dont bother walking past this sign without a degree."

What the bachelor's degree really communicates is not competence or proficiency. What it communicates is that the person has the grit to stick to a project for four years. And it doesn't always say much more than that.

In a particularly tight labor market (such as we are currently experiencing), the ability to stay on task for a relatively long period of time is itself a valuable skillset. Employee turnover sucks, and good employers are willing to pay extra (even above market rate) to avoid that problem.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

Did anybody catch during the recent "Lori Loughlin" scandal of kids/parents using the "side door" to get into colleges...that some kids were getting shrinks to certify them with some sort of anxiety disorder affecting their ability to take tests, so they could be given the option to take the SAT without a time limit? I did not realize such a thing existed, but should not be surprised.

Apparently the scores used to indicate when the test was taken without a time limit, but that has been done away with, and now colleges looking at scores cannot tell who took it with a time limit, and without.

Gonna suck when they’re in the real world, and they have a time limit to get a job done. You tell my boss you have anxiety and can’t handle having a time limit, and he’s gonna reply he has anxiety and can’t handle an employee that can’t do their job on time.

The worlds gone nutty. Sit back and enjoy the show.

 

[Twangbanger]

What the bachelor's degree really communicates is not competence or proficiency. What it communicates is that the person has the grit to stick to a project for four years. And it doesn't always say much more than that.

In a particularly tight labor market (such as we are currently experiencing), the ability to stay on task for a relatively long period of time is itself a valuable skillset. Employee turnover sucks, and good employers are willing to pay extra (even above market rate) to avoid that problem.

I don't know that I buy the reducing turnover part, but I would agree the ability to commit to a long-term project during your youth, is probably the selective indicator that is in play here. Most people eventually grow up and learn to focus, if given enough time. They have to, if they want to eat. The ability to do it at age 19 is not universal. Requiring a degree is not fair in many fields, but does probably have the effect of culling out a fair number of people who lack "impulse control" (or who took a very long time to develop it). But if standards drop far enough, and especially if Bernie makes it free, it will probably have even less predictive value than it does now.

I think it's great that America was/is a country where it is possible for people without credentials to succeed very well in life. Even better to have a President like Trump whose policies seem aligned with trying to preserve that set of economic circumstances. But I also grew up with a lot of kids whose parents bought into the whole "School is a waste / you're better to just get a job" idea, and unfortunately, a lot of them suffered tremendously in the last downturn, at least in the circle of people I came from. Unfortunately I cannot think of a single one who isn't either on public assistance or barely getting by, or both. The economy is rigged up a whole different way now than it was when their parents were getting their start in life. There is a concerted effort to suck as much profits out of the wages of middle class people as possible, it has always been that way, but now global trends and changes in the law seem to be accelerating the process. And of course, the Education Industry takes advantage of this as a way to preserve itself.

But to answer the question, in 10 years at 8% tuition growth...we appear to be on track for about $120 grand, in cost anyway.

 

[Vigilant]

This has been coming for a while now. Level the field.

More of an include everyone, even those that can’t ****ing read and write.

 

[jamil]

The SAT is not a good predictor of how a student will do in college. I'm honestly surprised it has taken this long for it to fall out of favor.

This is not true. Most studies show that higher SAT/ACT scores do correlate with higher success in college. There is some slop in that. SAT scores don’t predict as well the effort one puts into college.

 

[jamil]

Oh. i have an idea what we could use as standards. We could use immutable characteristics, then group people by those characteristics as an identity. Then rank order groups by how much we think they’ve been oppressed by the dominant group, and give those groups preferential placement.

Oh. Wait. Let’s go one better. We could use how many immutable characteristics they have which we can say are “oppressed” and make that into a sort of index. We’ll call it, “intersections of oppression”. Yeah. Rank order by that. That will definitely predict their success in college. Way more than taking some stupid test which tries to assess knowledge and thinking skills.

 

[Nazgul]

I never realized how many kids should not be in school. My wife has taught several of these classes over the years and she is actually teaching one now. At the end of the current class there is a 80 question test. Just for the fun of it my wife gave my 12 year old daughter the test and she missed 4 questions. . . 4. They have kids talking these classes 3, 4, 5 times because they can not pass.

This!! Since retiring I work in a High School helping at risk kids. My 10 year old grandson who is a video gaming, military nut with straight A's can answer the test questions. For whatever reason, these students have not learned to focus. They are not incapable of doing the work, they are often very smart.

Many do not need to go to college. They would not benefit at all.

Have had a couple of students who turned around, and said that I helped. That makes it worth it!!

What is fun is when they say they want to be in the Military, always a SEAL, Special Forces, etc. They can't even focus long enough to do their homework, how are they going to be disciplined enough to have another's back in a firefight???

Don

 

[Nazgul]

When I graduated HS I had great SAT scores, and a full ride state scholarship. Just not ready for more school and went in the military. Good choice.

Returned to college later and did well.

Don

 

[femurphy77]

Wow!



INGO has standards!

 

[DoggyDaddy]

And being raised right! That’s worth more than college. College can teach them, but everything else is instilled from how they're raised. Congrats on raising 2 successful men... and awesome job!

^^^This^^^ You can lead a kid to college, but you can't make them think.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The SAT’s lost their value when they began to adjust the results based on your victimhood status. When Asians began getting their scores lowered because they generally score better, and when blacks began getting bonus points because they tend to score lower, the tests became meaningless. It was only a matter of time before the test completely went away.

The SAT score was still going to be the same, even under the proposed "adversity score". That would have been a supplemental number that, like the SAT score itself, the given college could decide how much it mattered. However that was dropped before being implemented. This has since been changed to "landscape":

https://professionals.collegeboard.org/landscape

Applicants from the same census tract share the same neighborhood data and indicators; applicants from the same high school share the same high school data and indicators. The indicators are:

1. College attendance: The predicted probability that a student from the neighborhood/high school enrolls in a 4-year college (aggregate College Board and National Student Clearinghouse data)
2. Household structure: Neighborhood/high school information about the number of married or coupled families, single-parent families, and children living under the poverty line (American Community Survey)
3. Median family income: Median family income among those in the neighborhood/high school (American Community Survey)
4. Housing stability: Neighborhood/high school information about vacancy rates, rental vs. home ownership, and mobility/housing turnover (American Community Survey)
5. Education levels: Information about the typical educational attainment in the neighborhood/high school (American Community Survey)
6. Crime: The predicted probability of being a victim of a crime in the neighborhood or neighborhoods represented by the students attending the high school. Data provided by Location, Inc. For more information, please visit www.LocationInc.com/data.

So, no SAT scores are not 'racially adjusted' despite what the outrage porn outlets are telling you.

 

[Hawkeye]

You know, this belief that a college degree isn't worth it is nothing new. I was hearing it when I was in high school 50 years ago. It mostly came form people who didn't have a college degree, or had never attended college. Seemed like there was a degree (pardon the pun) of truth to it then just as there is now. But also a large factor then, and probably today, is that it was people who didn't go or couldn't make the cut to get in used this as a justification for their choice.

How many of you how are saying a college degree isn't worth it are (or have been) college attendees or have degrees?

My own opinion is, as with many things, it depends. What was the course of study, what is the degree in, and what college did you graduate from?

In many professions, a college degree is an entry ticket. If you don't have one, you can't get admitted to the dance.

Underwater Basket Weaving always gets a laugh as a "degree" (or as a college class) . And I'd agree. If the degree is marketable it can get you in the door to a good, monetarily or personally rewarding career. But there is also an argument that learning in and of itself is a worthy goal.

 

[CHCRandy]

Call me old school....I just don't see the use of a college degree, especially the degrees these people get now days. Don't get me wrong....if you desire to be a Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer, Chemist....yeah, you need a degree. But when you can go become a journeyman pipe fitter or electrician, and make close to $100K a year without college, why waste the time? My daughters both have college degrees in business.....and neither one of them use them. It did get them another $2-4 per hour, but not that much for 4 years of life and the debt and they could have got same jobs without college degree. If you are going to go to college, at least get degree in field that pays you for learning it.

Some of the most successful people I know have no education. I know people who can't even read or write who have really made out well. We all know the way you learn is by doing it and failing...hard knocks. I remember losing everything in the stock market when the dot com burst, I was 30 years old and flat broke! I lost what was a fortune to me at that time...all of it gone. I learned more and it taught me the best lesson of my life! I learned more by losing everything than I could have ever paid for and learned in school.

With that said, I think if a kid wants to go to college and try to better their life.....we probably should all encourage that. There is nothing worse than growing older and thinking of the missed opportunities in life. It is better to try and fail than wonder what if when you get older. If nothing else, you will learn from your failure.

BTW........What has an IU degree ever been worth, lol?

 

[Hawkeye]

Call me old school....I just don't see the use of a college degree, especially the degrees these people get now days. Don't get me wrong....if you desire to be a Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer, Chemist....yeah, you need a degree. But when you can go become a journeyman pipe fitter or electrician, and make close to $100K a year without college, why waste the time? My daughters both have college degrees in business.....and neither one of them use them. It did get them another $2-4 per hour, but not that much for 4 years of life and the debt and they could have got same jobs without college degree. If you are going to go to college, at least get degree in field that pays you for learning it.

Some of the most successful people I know have no education. I know people who can't even read or write who have really made out well. We all know the way you learn is by doing it and failing...hard knocks. I remember losing everything in the stock market when the dot com burst, I was 30 years old and flat broke! I lost what was a fortune to me at that time...all of it gone. I learned more and it taught me the best lesson of my life! I learned more by losing everything than I could have ever paid for and learned in school.

With that said, I think if a kid wants to go to college and try to better their life.....we probably should all encourage that. There is nothing worse than growing older and thinking of the missed opportunities in life. It is better to try and fail than wonder what if when you get older. If nothing else, you will learn from your failure.

BTW........What has an IU degree ever been worth, lol?

I understand.

Should I assume you do not have a degree?

 

[CampingJosh]

This is not true. Most studies show that higher SAT/ACT scores do correlate with higher success in college. There is some slop in that. SAT scores don’t predict as well the effort one puts into college.

I'm not sure we're saying different things. SAT/ACT scores correlate, but high school GPA correlates better.

I definitely agree with your last sentence. And high school GPA is a better measure of effort.

 

[Vigilant]

X

 

[jamil]

I'm not sure we're saying different things. SAT/ACT scores correlate, but high school GPA correlates better.

I definitely agree with your last sentence. And high school GPA is a better measure of effort.

You said it wasn’t a good predictor. That’s not true. It is. I also said there’s some slop in that. Just because you score well on standardized tests doesn’t mean you have the work ethic, time management, and drive to be successful in college. GPA can be better in determining that, but then there’s the complexity of different standards between the many thousands of high schools. High schools do weight their GPA’s, but not all. Not all 4.0’s mean the same. That can be normalized, but GPA alone is not a lot better than regarding standardized tests alone.

Using GPA in conjunction with standardized test results give a fuller picture than using either alone. Using one primarily and then letting the other inform where the one falls short, along with considering other factors as well, is better predictor depending on what the goals are of the school. If it’s an academically challenging school with a reputation to uphold, trying to establish the minimum admissible standards is important. It doesn’t make sense to chuck out a good tool unless those goals have changed.

But it seemed that you think the standardizes tests are without value since you agreed that colleges are right to stop using them.

 

[CampingJosh]

You said it wasn’t a good predictor. That’s not true. It is.

No, it really isn't. SAT score correlates, but it doesn't correlate particularly well. It's fine if schools want to keep using it, but I don't think it's actually that helpful, and I don't think it's a great loss if it goes away.

As you hinted at earlier, effort is the real key to success, and that is true in much more than just school.

[T]he expected graduation rate of a student with a given GPA doesn’t change very much depending on her SAT score. But the expected graduation rate of a student with a given SAT score varies tremendously depending on her GPA.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/presto...mpletion-high-school-gpa-beats-sat-score/amp/

 

[sparky32]

Call me old school....I just don't see the use of a college degree, especially the degrees these people get now days. Don't get me wrong....if you desire to be a Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer, Chemist....yeah, you need a degree. But when you can go become a journeyman pipe fitter or electrician, and make close to $100K a year without college, why waste the time? My daughters both have college degrees in business.....and neither one of them use them. It did get them another $2-4 per hour, but not that much for 4 years of life and the debt and they could have got same jobs without college degree. If you are going to go to college, at least get degree in field that pays you for learning it.

Some of the most successful people I know have no education. I know people who can't even read or write who have really made out well. We all know the way you learn is by doing it and failing...hard knocks. I remember losing everything in the stock market when the dot com burst, I was 30 years old and flat broke! I lost what was a fortune to me at that time...all of it gone. I learned more and it taught me the best lesson of my life! I learned more by losing everything than I could have ever paid for and learned in school.

With that said, I think if a kid wants to go to college and try to better their life.....we probably should all encourage that. There is nothing worse than growing older and thinking of the missed opportunities in life. It is better to try and fail than wonder what if when you get older. If nothing else, you will learn from your failure.

BTW........What has an IU degree ever been worth, lol?

THIS. I have many friends who spent 100k for 4 years of school and have yet to make even close to what I make. 95% of degrees are horse**** and you will be paying on them till you damn near retire. IF you plan to be engineer, DR, or somthing that is more specialized and will make plenty of money the debt is less of a problem.

800.00 bucks a month making 50k a year is hard for most people who graduate 4 year college.

 

[MarkC]

It does seem that a BA/BS degree has replace the HS diploma as an entry credential for many jobs. Unfortunately, unless the degree is in a hard skill, many are getting degrees that might have been fun to earn but are relatively useless in the "real world." Students party all weekend (beginning on Thursday evening), don't have to work that hard in class, and "scholarship" means agreeing with the instructor's activism. Inflated grades also mean that GPA on the transcript is pretty well meaningless.

Much of higher education today has been commoditized, especially with the "free" student loan money fueling tuition inflation.