What would you do in this situation

[elaw555]

1. Check for accomplices.
2. End the threat.

 

[elaw555]

Why would you have to kill them? There are several non lethal places to hit hit an assailant and stop his his progression. JMO

Yeah...NO. Shoot to end the threat immediately with hits to center mass. Rinse and repeat if neccesary.

 

[JDonhardt]

Why would you have to kill them? There are several non lethal places to hit hit an assailant and stop his his progression. JMO

It seems like if you are prepared to shoot someone you should probably prepare for them to die. Aiming at the chest/center of mass means the potential of hitting the heart or lungs and could very well kill someone. It might not, but it might.

I have never shot anyone. I have been in zero gun fights. I guess I just dont know what its like to be put down a knife weilding robber by shooting him in the legs.

 

[Armed-N-Ready]

Impossible situation.

Why am I at Dicks? I'm obviously intoxicated or lost my mind and should not be carrying anyway. If you did shoot the clerk would have to carry your gun to the door when you leave (probably why the BG had a knife).

I hate what ifs.

 

[j706]

I have posted this link on here before. It is worth reading guys. It is the nature of all good Americans to want to help but often times one needs to really consider the possible ramifications. Commentary by Evan Marshall

 

[youngda9]

Draw on him and tell him not to make any sudden movements. Then tell him to drop the knife. Then tell him to get down on the ground. Then tell someone to call the cops. Remove the knife from his reach. Stay drawn on him until police arrive.

If he makes any sudden movements towards someone with the knife, stop the threat.

If he decides to run away reholster, stay on the scene, and call the cops.


I am not going to watch someone get stabbed knowing it was coming and I could have acted to stop it.

Also, you are legally able to protect a third party.

+1, repped.

 

[Srtsi4wd]

I have posted this link on here before. It is worth reading guys. It is the nature of all good Americans to want to help but often times one needs to really consider the possible ramifications. Commentary by Evan Marshall

Good read but not really relevant to our (citizen LTCH holder) situation.
We have law on the books that protects us, AS LONG AS we use good judgement. In the above article, the writer is a police officer which puts a completely different angle on it. He talks of getting sued for endangerment and complaints of excessive force. I really wonder how many of those were motivated by the legal oppurtunity to sue a deep pocketed municipality, county or state?

As for me, I'm not carrying to enforce the law. That is a police officers job. I carry to protect myself and others from those who believe that violent acts against the public have no ramifications if the police are not there. To me, to allow a violent act to occur in my presence is repulsive and to not act in the defense of community is negligent. I would use my best judgement and act to stop the threat. Until more people realize that personal safety and community security is the responsibility of the PEOPLE and not the STATE, violent crime will continue to occur. My .

 

[JDonhardt]

There are too many variables to pull and try to save the day. Heres a scary variable:

The guy pulls out his knife and yells at the cashier to "Give me all the money or I'll kill you!"...

You pull and point at the guy...

An off duty (or even an on duty) HEARS the yelling and screaming from around the corner, pulls and approaches to see you with your gun pointed in the direction of a cash register after he has just heard "...or I'll kill you..."

That could get sticky....

 

[LotsofGlocks]

Have to ask yourself if you can answer yes to all 3 of these ?'s. If your life is in DANGER.

Ability-Does he have the Ability?
Opportunity-Does he have the Opportunity?
Intent-Does he have the Intent?


A guy holding a knife to the cashier is not an immedate threat to my life, unless he threatens me with the weapon.

Be the best witness you can in this situation!

 

[wtfd661]

I'm sorry but there is a lot of fail in this thread.

Even if I wasn't a Police Officer I would differently pull my handgun and stop a forcible felony from occurring (even though it isn't my money, nor my family or loved ones endangered). I also am not able to read minds, so I'm just going to go ahead and assume that someone who is capable of pulling a knife on another human being and committing armed robbery is also capable of sticking said knife into that person and killing them. I have yet to see someone announce prior to sticking a knife in them that " I am now going to stick my knife into the left side of your chest and I will do this twice". "I will then pull the knife back out and after stabbing your 3 times on the right side of your neck I will then attempt to slice your neck open". Again call it an assumption but I'm going to error on the side of safety (of the victim of the armored robbery) and intervene before it happens.

By the way if that person has their knife out already, you are behind the game now. Waiting for them to start cutting or stabbing the victim, prior to intervening (just to make sure they are actually threatened) is going to cause that person to lose their life.

Why would you have to kill them? There are several non lethal places to hit hit an assailant and stop his his progression. JMO

To be gentle, the only advice I have for you is to get some really good training. You aim and shoot to stop the threat as soon as possible, you do not aim for lethal or non lethal "places".

 

[wtfd661]

Have to ask yourself if you can answer yes to all 3 of these ?'s. If your life is in DANGER.

Ability-Does he have the Ability? yes he has the ability to turn and stab me
Opportunity-Does he have the Opportunity? yes he has the opportunity to turn my direction and stab me
Intent-Does he have the Intent? yes he has the intent to turn and rob me of my wallet and then leave no witness to his felony


A guy holding a knife to the cashier is not an immedate threat to my life, unless he threatens me with the weapon.

Be the best witness you can in this situation!

My answers are above are in red

The guy holding the knife to the cashier is a immedate threat to my life and that was why I was in fear for my life

The best witness is the one that is alive, not dead.

 

[Coach]

+1! HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA i'm totally with you. as a former galyans employee, i totally miss the trading post!

I miss the place as well. Dick's is awful.

 

[cholmstr]

Knives are bad

As a police officer i feel obligated to take action quick and hopefully I'am armed at the time. Knives can kill you so quick and having someone confront you with a knife is no fun believe me. Like ryanbr remember the 21 foot rule and be ready if that person comes at you!!

 

[Que]

As someone said, it is easy to armchair quarterback, but it is a very good scenario to think about. I especially like the focus on our (the armed witness) legal responsibility and the possibility of provoking the assailant to possibly take a hostage.

I just don't think I have the instinct to not do something, especially if I am close to him. I probably would not consider my legal liability if I could make a difference. Most likely, I would draw on the robber and pray that he did not make a move until the police arrived.

 

[MoparEric]

I'm sorry but there is a lot of fail in this thread.

Even if I wasn't a Police Officer I would differently pull my handgun and stop a forcible felony from occurring (even though it isn't my money, nor my family or loved ones endangered). I also am not able to read minds, so I'm just going to go ahead and assume that someone who is capable of pulling a knife on another human being and committing armed robbery is also capable of sticking said knife into that person and killing them. I have yet to see someone announce prior to sticking a knife in them that " I am now going to stick my knife into the left side of your chest and I will do this twice". "I will then pull the knife back out and after stabbing your 3 times on the right side of your neck I will then attempt to slice your neck open". Again call it an assumption but I'm going to error on the side of safety (of the victim of the armored robbery) and intervene before it happens.

By the way if that person has their knife out already, you are behind the game now. Waiting for them to start cutting or stabbing the victim, prior to intervening (just to make sure they are actually threatened) is going to cause that person to lose their life.



To be gentle, the only advice I have for you is to get some really good training. You aim and shoot to stop the threat as soon as possible, you do not aim for lethal or non lethal "places".

Thats the difference between your LE training, and a civilian trying to stop an act of violence. after all of your training you mean to tell me that there is no way to disable the advancement of a attacker without shooting to kill, and end the situation? And I did not say that it would be MY choice, I was stating options.

 

[T-rav]

I feel that as a responsible armed citizen it is the duty to protect not only ones self but also a 3rd party from a deadly or bodily injury incident. If I can answer yes to the AIO then it is a good call. Now Im not saying bodily injury just by punching os slapping someone, Im sayin with a weapon in hand weather its a knife, baseball bat, or a tire iron or what ever.

 

[bigiron]

Why would you have to kill them? There are several non lethal places to hit hit an assailant and stop his his progression. JMO

uhhhhhhh.....yeah, and then after you are finished paying him $80,000 a year for the rest of his life because a civil lawsuit deemed that your actions prevented him from working for an honest living after your unjust act of vigilanty bravery, you'll wish you would have ended his stay here on earth. i know it horrible to think of, ending someones life, but truthfully simply injuring someone will bring years of crappy legal battles. no criminal charges for your actions but be prepared to get you socks sued off from some scumbag who chose to put his life in harms way. its just the world we live in, remember, he had a bad childhood and thats what pushed him to do his evil deeds, its not his fault. i don't want to be the guy in the paper shooting someone but if i'm gonna decide to put one in him hes not gonna be giving his side of the story. BTW, i did pose this question, about shooting to kill or shooting to disable, to both a lawyer and prosecutor, they both said it would be advisable to end the threat terminally rather than leave a witness to another give a different side of the story. remember, dead men tell no tales. may we each be blessed so as not to be put in this situation! jeff

 

[jbombelli]

uhhhhhhh.....yeah, and then after you are finished paying him $80,000 a year for the rest of his life because a civil lawsuit deemed that your actions prevented him from working for an honest living after your unjust act of vigilanty bravery, you'll wish you would have ended his stay here on earth. i know it horrible to think of, ending someones life, but truthfully simply injuring someone will bring years of crappy legal battles. no criminal charges for your actions but be prepared to get you socks sued off from some scumbag who chose to put his life in harms way. its just the world we live in, remember, he had a bad childhood and thats what pushed him to do his evil deeds, its not his fault. i don't want to be the guy in the paper shooting someone but if i'm gonna decide to put one in him hes not gonna be giving his side of the story. BTW, i did pose this question, about shooting to kill or shooting to disable, to both a lawyer and prosecutor, they both said it would be advisable to end the threat terminally rather than leave a witness to another give a different side of the story. remember, dead men tell no tales. may we each be blessed so as not to be put in this situation! jeff

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

He can't sue you if you wound him, preventing his commission of a forcible felony. At least that's my understanding, after speaking with my lawyer, based on the above. I'm also assuming we're still talking about the same scenario, where the guy pulled a knife on the clerk and demanded the money from the register (a forcible felony if there ever was one). I'm sure there would be at least one witness (the clerk) on your side, and probably several more in a store like Dick's.

 

[hps]

No draw! hand on weapon and back up!! keep something between you and him. let him have the money. follow him out the door (safe distance) with cell phone to ear and call 911

 

[MoparEric]

uhhhhhhh.....yeah, and then after you are finished paying him $80,000 a year for the rest of his life because a civil lawsuit deemed that your actions prevented him from working for an honest living after your unjust act of vigilanty bravery, you'll wish you would have ended his stay here on earth. i know it horrible to think of, ending someones life, but truthfully simply injuring someone will bring years of crappy legal battles. no criminal charges for your actions but be prepared to get you socks sued off from some scumbag who chose to put his life in harms way. its just the world we live in, remember, he had a bad childhood and thats what pushed him to do his evil deeds, its not his fault. i don't want to be the guy in the paper shooting someone but if i'm gonna decide to put one in him hes not gonna be giving his side of the story. BTW, i did pose this question, about shooting to kill or shooting to disable, to both a lawyer and prosecutor, they both said it would be advisable to end the threat terminally rather than leave a witness to another give a different side of the story. remember, dead men tell no tales. may we each be blessed so as not to be put in this situation! jeff

OK, if that is the case what would be the difference between a wrongful dealth lawsuit, filed by the family when you shoot and kill them. In the end there is no real winning situation for all.