What would you do in this situation

[MoparEric]

double post Sorry! deleted

 

[samrothstein01]

Shooting scenario’s are difficult. There are a lot of variables and what if’s. As many have said, it’s much easier to armchair the decision, as there is no reality to deal with. (Adrenaline, public, backstops etc.)
Everyone has a different view of why they carry, and I agree the first and foremost reason is to protect myself and my family. But I personally feel there is also a responsibility to protect others if I am able to without harm to myself or other innocent bystanders.
A few thoughts…..

No, you be the best witness possible and if things get uglier you try to talk him/her down. Your current scenario is not life endangering for anyone.

A wielded knife is certainly a life endangering scenario. Knife’s can be more dangerous than guns, and this statement shows exactly why. Many people don’t treat them as “deadly weapons” and think less of their ability to take a life. At 21ft, 7 yards, a knife is a seriously deadly threat. I would even go as far as to extend that length a bit. Ever tried to draw having someone run at you from 21ft? I would recommend the exercise with training weapons, i.e., a blue gun and a dummy knife. Try to draw and pull the trigger before the assailant reaches you…..not likely.

Why would you have to kill them? There are several non lethal places to hit hit an assailant and stop his his progression. JMO

Any time you are shooting you are using deadly force…regardless if the individual ends up dead or not. Additionally, you shoot to neutralize the threat…which should be expected to be lethal from the beginning. If it turns out he doesn’t die, lucky for him.

Have to ask yourself if you can answer yes to all 3 of these ?'s. If your life is in DANGER.
Ability-Does he have the Ability?
Opportunity-Does he have the Opportunity?
Intent-Does he have the Intent?

A guy holding a knife to the cashier is not an immedate threat to my life, unless he threatens me with the weapon.

Be the best witness you can in this situation!

Is A life in danger???? That is the question that should be asked, using the AOI.

As a police officer i feel obligated to take action quick and hopefully I'am armed at the time. Knives can kill you so quick and having someone confront you with a knife is no fun believe me. Like ryanbr remember the 21 foot rule and be ready if that person comes at you!!

THIS ^^^^^^. +1

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

He can't sue you if you wound him, preventing his commission of a forcible felony. At least that's my understanding, after speaking with my lawyer, based on the above. I'm also assuming we're still talking about the same scenario, where the guy pulled a knife on the clerk and demanded the money from the register (a forcible felony if there ever was one). I'm sure there would be at least one witness (the clerk) on your side, and probably several more in a store like Dick's.

I believe it prevents you from criminal legal liability. The assailant certainly has the ability to file a civil suit….you can file a civil suit for someone looking at you funny. But, IANAL, TINLA, etc.

OK, if that is the case what would be the difference between a wrongful dealth lawsuit, filed by the family when you shoot and kill them. In the end there is no real winning situation for all.

There isn’t a difference. They can file a civil suit for wrongful death. However…if it is a justified shoot, there should be no problems conveying a convincing argument. Additionally, this is part of the responsibility associated with carrying a handgun. Many people take that responsibility too lightly, and don’t understand that along with the power it brings to protect, comes this responsibility and these potential issues. Carrying is a choice, and one that needs to be thought through in great detail by everyone who chooses to do so.

 

[win87]

One thing over looked is if you let BG go this sitition is done. Good for you. Then BG go next door and kills someone bad for you. The BG needs to be taken off the the street.

 

[SavageEagle]

Draw on him and tell him not to make any sudden movements. Then tell him to drop the knife. Then tell him to get down on the ground. Then tell someone to call the cops. Remove the knife from his reach. Stay drawn on him until police arrive.

If he makes any sudden movements towards someone with the knife, stop the threat.

If he decides to run away reholster, stay on the scene, and call the cops.


I am not going to watch someone get stabbed knowing it was coming and I could have acted to stop it.

Also, you are legally able to protect a third party.

This is pretty much the plan. Now if he's behind the counter with the knife to his/her throat, that changes things a little. But if he's on my side and pulls the knife, I"m not just going to stand and watch. I couldn't live with myself. I would shoot unless necessary to save a life.

 

[jbombelli]

I believe it prevents you from criminal legal liability. The assailant certainly has the ability to file a civil suit….you can file a civil suit for someone looking at you funny. But, IANAL, TINLA, etc.


There isn’t a difference. They can file a civil suit for wrongful death. However…if it is a justified shoot, there should be no problems conveying a convincing argument. Additionally, this is part of the responsibility associated with carrying a handgun. Many people take that responsibility too lightly, and don’t understand that along with the power it brings to protect, comes this responsibility and these potential issues. Carrying is a choice, and one that needs to be thought through in great detail by everyone who chooses to do so.

I recommend talking to a lawyer who's familiar with these issues. It says "legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever" not "criminal prosecution." Mine says civil suit=a form of legal jeopardy.

Sure, you can sue someone for looking at you. There's nothing in the state code that says otherwise. Unlike when you're shot in self defense. MY lawyer interprets it my way, and I think I recall seeing other lawyers on this forum interpret it my way.

So again, talk to a lawyer that's familiar with this issue. Not some real estate lawyer, not some ambulance chaser, not a bankruptcy attorney.

 

[finity]

Have to ask yourself if you can answer yes to all 3 of these ?'s. If your life is in DANGER.

Ability-Does he have the Ability?
Opportunity-Does he have the Opportunity?
Intent-Does he have the Intent?


A guy holding a knife to the cashier is not an immedate threat to my life, unless he threatens me with the weapon.

Be the best witness you can in this situation!

I just don't get how so many people fail to understand that an armed robbery IS A THREAT TO SOMEONES LIFE. The implication is that "if you don't do what I say, I will kill you". That's the whole intent of the "armed" part of "armed robbery".

Additionally, a threat of death is not the ONLY time that lethal force is justified. There is also "Serious Bodily Injury". And then there is prevention or termination of a "forcible felony" which is murder, rape kidnapping, armed robbery, etc.

Here is the IC for the above:

IC 35-41-1-4
"Bodily injury" defined
Sec. 4. "Bodily injury" means any impairment of physical condition, including physical pain.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.5.



IC 35-41-1-11
"Forcible felony" defined
Sec. 11. "Forcible felony" means a felony that involves the use or threat of force against a human being, or in which there is imminent danger of bodily injury to a human being.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.12.

Thats the difference between your LE training, and a civilian trying to stop an act of violence. after all of your training you mean to tell me that there is no way to disable the advancement of a attacker without shooting to kill, and end the situation? And I did not say that it would be MY choice, I was stating options.

No one is saying that if there are other options that those shouldn't be tried first/instead.

What I think most are saying, including me, is that why put yourself or others at additional risk of SBI or death JUST to protect the life of the person who would gladly take yours if given the chance. If the situation warrants deadly force, hesitating or "trying to just hurt the BG" could get you killed. You have no obligation to the BG. You don't even have an obligation to give a warning. Again, doing so could kill you.

This is what I would wish to do, however like others have said it could easily excite the situation considering nobody's life is currently threatened. I suppose that in a scenario like this your best bet is to read body language as carefully as you can and decide whether or not he's really willing to take the life of the cashier?

As was mentioned, you can't read their minds. You really have no idea what they are going to do in the next split-second. The only thing you know for sure is what you see right now & what has been threatened either explicitly or implied (i.e. "give me the money" while waving a knife around is fairly obvious what the non-verbal threat is).

Same here, but if a case like this ever made it in front of a jury it may be hard to convince them that the man who pulled a less deadly weapon than you did deserved to die.

So what exactly is "less deadly"? There is no such thing as "less dead". Dead is dead.

Whether its a gun, a knife, a club, a car or a bomb, they are all deadly threats

uhhhhhhh.....yeah, and then after you are finished paying him $80,000 a year for the rest of his life because a civil lawsuit deemed that your actions prevented him from working for an honest living after your unjust act of vigilanty bravery, you'll wish you would have ended his stay here on earth. i know it horrible to think of, ending someones life, but truthfully simply injuring someone will bring years of crappy legal battles. no criminal charges for your actions but be prepared to get you socks sued off from some scumbag who chose to put his life in harms way. its just the world we live in, remember, he had a bad childhood and thats what pushed him to do his evil deeds, its not his fault.

Can anyone tell mne what the stats are in IN where the BG successfully sues a GG over bodily injury or the family of said BG successfully sues for wrongful death? I just can't believe (in this state especially) that that possibility is so likely as to be concerned at all. Could it happen? Sure. An asteroid could hit the earth killing all life instantly, too. Is it likely? That's what I'd like someone "in the know" to tell us.

i don't want to be the guy in the paper shooting someone but if i'm gonna decide to put one in him hes not gonna be giving his side of the story. BTW, i did pose this question, about shooting to kill or shooting to disable, to both a lawyer and prosecutor, they both said it would be advisable to end the threat terminally rather than leave a witness to another give a different side of the story. remember, dead men tell no tales. may we each be blessed so as not to be put in this situation! jeff

Sounds like your lawyer was just looking to drum up some business & the prosecutor saw another feather in his career cap when you get arrested & convicted for murder after you execute a BG who was no longer a threat to you just to "eliminate any other side of the story".

We, as civilians, don't "shoot to kill". We shoot to "stop the threat". If the BG dies as a result then so be it. BUT... as mentioned above shooting to stop the threat also means you place your shots in the most efficient place to stop the threat as quickly as possible which also happens to be the second most lethal place on the body - upper torso.

A wielded knife is certainly a life endangering scenario. Knife’s can be more dangerous than guns, and this statement shows exactly why. Many people don’t treat them as “deadly weapons” and think less of their ability to take a life. At 21ft, 7 yards, a knife is a seriously deadly threat. I would even go as far as to extend that length a bit. Ever tried to draw having someone run at you from 21ft? I would recommend the exercise with training weapons, i.e., a blue gun and a dummy knife. Try to draw and pull the trigger before the assailant reaches you…..not likely.

This is another exdample of the failure of the most commonly taught technique - stand & deliver. The Tueller Drill was done (from what I remember) by someone just standing there while the "BG" charged at them with a deadly weapon. At 21 feet the BG "won". I'd say that if the BG is moving you also need to be moving. Get the heck off the X. Don't just stand there & try to outdraw him.

 

[bigiron]

i agree as to the logic "why not to shoot to kill". i'm not saying we should all walk around ready to kill everything that moves that may threaten us. however, given the situation of possibly shooting this BG in an awkward position, possibly jeopardizing the cashier with your shot as she is in close proximity. unfortuantely thiese encounters happen each day and most don't get confronted. so, as to my argument to use LETHAL force to stop this crime rather than us MAIMING force. you can get sued civil court even though the statue states that no "legal" jeopardy can occur. they can sue you, they will lose as long as you are cleared criminally but you will get sued. lawyer fees, time in court, mental anguish and social anguish will all drain you both emotionally and financially. now, this BG is alive and testifies in court, criminally, that you did some tactical error and the prosecutor is a jag so you get a battery charge against you. sound unlikely, hold on, read the thread from full-auto about the lawyers approach to a self-defense situation. so lets say you get a battery charge out of it, no harm no foul right? you don't have to pay a fine or do any jail time. uhhhohhhhh, wait, you had a criminal charge. now, you're in a different parameter. without the BGs statement you have a greater chance of coming out of this without any civil lawsuit and thus less emotional stress than you're already experiencing. i think reading full-autos thread will shed some light in this area. however, IAMAL and if you have one on retainer and he/she has given different advice, obviously don't listen to the half-drunk farmboy on INGO. be safe out there and pray that today isn't the day you face such an encounter. GOD bless!

 

[samrothstein01]

This is another exdample of the failure of the most commonly taught technique - stand & deliver. The Tueller Drill was done (from what I remember) by someone just standing there while the "BG" charged at them with a deadly weapon. At 21 feet the BG "won". I'd say that if the BG is moving you also need to be moving. Get the heck off the X. Don't just stand there & try to outdraw him.

I completely agree....I was just pointing out that this drill was an eye opening experience for me. 21 feet, or 7 yards seems like a long way away, and at one point in time I would have never considered someone with a knife this far away as a deadly threat. The drill was simply something to change the line of thought, open some eyes, and induce critical thinking. In a real life circumstance, that is when the rest of the drills come into play, such as drawing while on the move, taking cover, etc.

Just an "ah-ha" moment that allowed me to change my line of thinking and be more observant and aware of threats and distances.

 

[tv1217]

i agree, no shoot. but you better believe i'm taking a tactical position and ole' trusty is ready to make an appearance. i'll gladly watch him leave with the money but the first second he begins to escalate things with the cashier to the point of becoming aggressive with the weapon he will meet JESUS for the first time. i'm covered by forcable felony law and if i drop a BG i won't feel as bad as seeing an innocent person go down in a crime.

I don't think he'd be meeting Jesus.

 

[darinb]

I would not stop a robbery but I would draw and fire to stop a murder. I would stay calm and quietly get as close as possible and observe to make sure no other criminals are in their.

 

[finity]

I would not stop a robbery but I would draw and fire to stop a murder. I would stay calm and quietly get as close as possible and observe to make sure no other criminals are in their.

There is a very fine line between a robbery and a murder & you don't know when the BG is going to step over that line.

A robbery is a crime against a person just like murder. It's even listed that way under the criminal law statutes (See IC Title 35 Article 42).

 

[Liberty Sanders]

The proper course of action in this situation is to shoot the suspect, instantly, and without warning. This would be perfectly justified.

To do otherwise risks either a murder or a sticky hostage situation.

 

[jeremy]

You are several feet away from a cash register at, say, a Dicks sporting goods. As you are browsing

Shoot myself for browsing the aisles at Dick's...

 

[WIZZO499]

Additionally, this is part of the responsibility associated with carrying a handgun. Many people take that responsibility too lightly, and don’t understand that along with the power it brings to protect, comes this responsibility and these potential issues. Carrying is a choice, and one that needs to be thought through in great detail by everyone who chooses to do so.

Just remember what Spiderman said:

With great power (to defend ourselves), comes great responsibility.

 

[SavageEagle]

Shoot myself for browsing the aisles at Dick's...

If this was any other site I could have a lot of fun with this statement.

 

[mtyt61783]

Pull the pistol & try 2 make a citizens arrest. Yell for someone 2 call 911. If he comes @ you or the cashier, stop him any way you want. I would do it for you, your Wife, daughter, son, grandma, or your favorite democrat.

 

[CTC B4Z]

Did something happen Con?

 

[oldfb]

pretend this next is in purple...

Rack the pump on your shotgun which will instantly force the BG to wet himself and surrender.

Purple off...

Man some people here "get it" some don't. If you strap on 2 pounds of steel check to make sure you have your brains and balls with you.

Stop the threat with the greatest caution and skill you have with your firearm. Draw and shoot center mass of BG, shoot til surrender or lack of threat. Pray you have no malfunctions, misfires or run the gun dry before either happens.

You aren't superman, a cop or action hero.

You are a legaly armed citizen who has made the choice (by carrying your gun) to not be a victim or witness to a forcible felony. BG's beware, we are no longer defenseless.

Worrying or hesitation about the civil liability, shoot to wound or citizens arrest BS should have been decided before you strapped on the shooting iron.

If you do anything beyond stopping the threat and then clearing for any accomplices you face being a victim yourself and possibly being disarmed and killed in the process.

This thread is great because here in the safety of our home is the time and place to question and wonder. In line at Dicks or Nates is not the place for anything but the best tactics and shooting you can muster. My .02 FWIW

 

[groovatron]

Why would you have to kill them? There are several non lethal places to hit hit an assailant and stop his his progression. JMO

Maybe you should carry around rubber bullets. Don't want to hurt anyone with that thing ..All kidding aside, if the gun comes out, I'm shooting to stop a threat. I am in no way thinking about a more "humane" way to end the threat. The quickest, most efficient path to ending the threat should be used.

Why am I at Dicks? I'm obviously intoxicated or lost my mind and should not be carrying anyway. If you did shoot the clerk would have to carry your gun to the door when you leave (probably why the BG had a knife).

I hate what ifs.

....I think many feel that way. The ironic thing is that when ammo shortage was at it's height, I could still find .45 and 9mm at my local Dick's. I think it's because nobody shopped there anymore. Pretty cheap also......I don't think they caught on to the whole supply/demand thing.

I'm sorry but there is a lot of fail in this thread.

Even if I wasn't a Police Officer I would differently pull my handgun and stop a forcible felony from occurring (even though it isn't my money, nor my family or loved ones endangered). I also am not able to read minds, so I'm just going to go ahead and assume that someone who is capable of pulling a knife on another human being and committing armed robbery is also capable of sticking said knife into that person and killing them. I have yet to see someone announce prior to sticking a knife in them that " I am now going to stick my knife into the left side of your chest and I will do this twice". "I will then pull the knife back out and after stabbing your 3 times on the right side of your neck I will then attempt to slice your neck open". Again call it an assumption but I'm going to error on the side of safety (of the victim of the armored robbery) and intervene before it happens.

By the way if that person has their knife out already, you are behind the game now. Waiting for them to start cutting or stabbing the victim, prior to intervening (just to make sure they are actually threatened) is going to cause that person to lose their life.



To be gentle, the only advice I have for you is to get some really good training. You aim and shoot to stop the threat as soon as possible, you do not aim for lethal or non lethal "places".

Yes sir!!! Will rep when it replenishes!

No draw! hand on weapon and back up!! keep something between you and him. let him have the money. follow him out the door (safe distance) with cell phone to ear and call 911

Why? Hand on weapon?......You have identified a threat. Putting your hand on a your gun without drawing only gives the BG another advantage. If you see a guy with a knife within striking distance of you, you better be prepared to draw and gain control of the situation. Otherwise, leave the gun at home and just hope that the BG decideds not to make you a victim like everyone else in the store.

Pull the pistol & try 2 make a citizens arrest. Yell for someone 2 call 911. If he comes @ you or the cashier, stop him any way you want. I would do it for you, your Wife, daughter, son, grandma, or your favorite democrat.

Short, sweet, and good choices

 

[LEO IN TRAINING]

i would let the robbery happen as long as it does not escalate into anything more than a strong arm robbery with no bodily harm towards the cashier or myself, for the most part get as much detail description of the suspect as you can and once the situation has ended call 911 and stay and give your information and decription on what happened, just remember to look and see which way the suspect goes on foot or if he is in a car, color, make, model, plate number....