Which pistol primers for self defense loads?

[tackdriver]

When I started handloading, my only handguns were a Hi Power (9mm) and a GP100 (.357). Never had an issue with primers, even when I tried Small Rifle military primers. I thought this was a silly topic. More handguns in the mix, and I don't feel the same. Now I have boxes of 9mm stashed away marked "BHP Only!!!" because the rounds are unreliable in anything else (even a P226).

TLDR - For me: CCI 500 runs 100%; Federal 100% (but few tested); Winchester 100% in most guns, 95% in one; CCI 400 seem 100%; Federal SRP AR Match- don't even go there.

Final answer: If you're betting your life on it, test it as much as you think your worth. Load 'the good stuff' with the best, and use the others for range rounds. This really sucks given the state of primer supply and demand.

I'd rather not carry at all, than hear "click" when it counts.

 

[Creedmoor]

Also, to answer the question - my batches of Fiocchi's haven't failed.

Hang your head in Shame Tom Andrew Dooley, for propping up that Third World Primer company for making a reasonable priced primer.
Maybe one day they will figure out how to actually make good primers, they have only been making primers for what 50 years longer than Winchester.

 

[tackdriver]

... Some shoots are so clean you could have a swastika covered pistol with nude photos of the prosecutor's mom engraved on the grips and be fine. ...

That's just priceless!
Now I've got coffee down my shirt.

 

[VERT]

s was

Trapper is right.

From the experience of one of my absolute best friends - handloads are fine for self defense. One of the reasons people think they put you in jail is there's no way to definitively measure the ballistics, so distance to target/victim and velocity of impact can't always be established with certainty. They introduce questions that factory ammo doesn't.

Most factory loads have an absolute recipe. Handload data can be given but is subjective.

When he shot and killed the junkie robbing the store he was working, even his civil trial was thrown out. After many discussions with him and a lot of bad factory ammo, I don't carry anything but hot, effective handloads for self defense. I'm not looking for a fight, in fact I hope I'm never in one, but I know my ammo will function if I am. YMMV.

Also, to answer the question - my batches of Fiocchi's haven't failed.

I have to ask, are or were you not a professional reloader? From your perspective I could understand your Opinion. I would bet $100 right now that your hand loaded ammo, especially that ammo which you depend on for serious social purposes would be of the highest quality.

 

[Creedmoor]

s was


I have to ask, are or were you not a professional reloader? From your perspective I could understand your Opinion. I would bet $100 right now that your hand loaded ammo, especially that ammo which you depend on for serious social purposes would be of the highest quality.

He still is.

 

[VERT]

He still is.

So….basically all of his personal ammunition is factory loaded ammunition. I am not saying that to be snarky at all. But in this particular situation what is being referred to as reloads are actually high quality boutique custom loads or top quality remanufactured ammunition. I wouldn‘t hesitate to call Buffalo Bore or other similar companies (I am sure there are many, I don‘t know who they are) factory ammunition. Of course I am also not a lawyer and really can not say what be brought up in a self defense trial. I will defer to experts like BBI.

Oh, and of course listen to anything Aszerigan might have to say regarding reloading. If I ever happen across Fiocchi primers I will buy some. I like Fiocchi ammunition.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Ballistic evidence can be an issue. Mas has an example of a light handload vs a knife wielding suspect where distance was questioned. Was the knife wielder close enough to put the shooter in the required imminent danger? Other times, optics matter. If your buddy is who I think he is and the load was a hot 10mm, I've heard him talk at Mas's class and say he carries factory ammo now, even though it wasn't an issue with his particular shoot.

Some shoots are so clean you could have a swastika covered pistol with nude photos of the prosecutor's mom engraved on the grips and be fine. We all hope any shooting we are in falls in that category. Some are more questionable, facts are in dispute, a political emergency happens, etc. Thanks to, IMO, an incredibly stupid attorney who had no idea how to make a good self defense case I can think of one blatantly good shoot that the optics surrounding it resulted in a guilty of a lesser in recent history here in Indiana. The vast vast majority of cases in Indiana will not be that sort of case. But if it's your case, how rare it is won't matter much to you.

That’s just it. One can study, examine, second guess, predict and worry about who and how good a prosecutor may be.

Take the old fable, “by Handloading your special Gorilla Killer loads Mr. Defendant, you purposely and deliberately murdered Johnny Rotten, while he was on his way to church at 3:10AM.”, opens up many responses.

Where does the questioning stop and legality start?

What about the sport shooting or training that you did to make it easier to murder poor Mr Rotten?


What about that gun you carried in a holster instead of a locked case in the trunk of your car? Johnny never had a chance.

What about that state of the art pistol you shot when you should have carried a tire iron to scare Mr Rotten?

While Mas has valid points and far legal more testimonials than I do, in context he can have some real points, but when you expand the reasoning, all of them don’t wash with me.

And then there is the fact that Factory Fodder may not have been produced and inspected as well as a Master Handloader who has complete control.

Yeah , I know, statistics show, tables and graphs show, but in spite of all that….

I am working on my skill set, equipping myself with what I know works for me and will not have room or time to worry or second guess who may think what.

See you on the Range

Trapper

 

[Creedmoor]

So….basically all of his personal ammunition is factory loaded ammunition. I am not saying that to be snarky at all. But in this particular situation what is being referred to as reloads are actually high quality boutique custom loads or top quality remanufactured ammunition. I wouldn‘t hesitate to call Buffalo Bore or other similar companies (I am sure there are many, I don‘t know who they are) factory ammunition. Of course I am also not a lawyer and really can not say what be brought up in a self defense trial. I will defer to experts like BBI.

Oh, and of course listen to anything Aszerigan might have to say regarding reloading. If I ever happen across Fiocchi primers I will buy some. I like Fiocchi ammunition.

I'm sure that Andy will speak up for Andy in this thread.
I know this, I come from a reloading/shooting family. When I set up one of my Dillon machine's, I tend to run hundreds to thousands of that round off at that time. I run 5,6 and 8 station Dillons.
Years ago S&B primers were sold at $19.00 a brick and other primers were around 30 to 43 bucks a brick. When you shoot the amount that we shoot to drop the cost 10-20 bucks a thousand back then was a bunch of money. And if they work well, why not use them.
Like I've posted, in the thousands and thousands of +P 9mm and 38 Special wad-cutters I just don't recall a failure with their primers. In modern times primer failures aren't that common.
If it is common failure, I would say its most likely a failure in the process that the re-loader is using.

 

[Leadeye]

Then there's Lester's.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

That’s just it. One can study, examine, second guess, predict and worry about who and how good a prosecutor may be.

Yeah. So I set myself up for success as best I can regardless. I'd rather give my attorney a steak dinner to sell a jury instead of roadkill possum if it comes to that. I'd rather give the prosecutor every reason to not charge me if it's on the bubble.

Like you said, not everyone has experience in areas they give advice on. I don't get wrapped around the axle about what people decide to do, I just put information out based on on actual experience, seeing the sausage being made, being on both sides of the investigation, etc. so folks can make an informed decision. I have had a prosecutor ask me what kind of ammunition was used. Good shoot, IMO, and ultimately not charged. I suspect had I not advocated for the shooter things would have turned out different. Another was a legally bad shoot, shooting at fleeing criminal incident, where I thought the shooter was panicked and stupid rather than malevolent. I pushed the prosecutor not to charge and, ultimately, they didn't. Had I thought the person was an ******* looking to shoot somebody in the back, I wouldn't have went to bat for them and let the chips fall where they may.

Anyone who thinks optics don't matter or that 'a good shoot is a good shoot' is laughably wrong and has zero understanding of either human interaction or the legal system.

 

[Aszerigan]

I am a licensed manufacturer but not on the scale of the big boys. I guess you could call my ammo 'factory' but it's about as similar to factory as McDonalds vs a boutique restaurant. We make the same things but we're not the same.

And no snark assumed @VERT , it's a legitimate observation and a good point.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

So….basically all of his personal ammunition is factory loaded ammunition. I am not saying that to be snarky at all. But in this particular situation what is being referred to as reloads are actually high quality boutique custom loads or top quality remanufactured ammunition. I wouldn‘t hesitate to call Buffalo Bore or other similar companies (I am sure there are many, I don‘t know who they are) factory ammunition. Of course I am also not a lawyer and really can not say what be brought up in a self defense trial. I will defer to experts like BBI.

Oh, and of course listen to anything Aszerigan might have to say regarding reloading. If I ever happen across Fiocchi primers I will buy some. I like Fiocchi ammunition.

With the understanding this is almost certainly overkill and that the vast majority of us will never remotely face the issue, but that while the odds are very low the stakes are very high:

Anyone who keeps lot numbers and exemplars is good to go. If you have factory ammo that is showing failures, quit buying **** factory ammo. Piggyback on your tax dollars at work. DHS tested guns and ammunition combos with *zero failures in 20k rounds*. The contracts are public record, not hard to find.

Don't cycle your ammunition repeatedly no matter who loaded it. Repeated inertial battering, even without a free float firing pin, can eventually dislodge the compound in the primer. How many times is too many? No idea. Lots of variables. Just understand each chambering is like a cat pushing something toward an edge. Eventually it goes over.

PM your guns. Springs wear out. Lube migrates. Things break.

Then, you've controlled what variables you can, so move on with life realizing you'll probably die from cancer, cholesterol, or riding a motorcycle into the Grand Canyon so at least your obit is interesting.

Or don't.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Perhaps of some relevance, in a meeting today this came up and I thought of this thread. I apologize to the OP for doing the thing he asked us not to do, but I will justify myself a bit by pointing out the original question has been answered well upthread.

2 cases pending prosecutorial decision were discussed that are waiting on crime lab ballistics testing. One is self defense. I have no doubt, literally none, that it's a good shoot and will not be filed. However the person who pulled that trigger is living under that Sword of Damocles until the ballistics are back. I can assure you that it is not a comfortable position to be in, and is often described as being more stressful than the incident itself. Anything that delays crime lab's ability to do testing can mean living with that sword hanging longer. Something else that's often overlooked in the 'a good shoot is a good shoot' bumper sticker advice. The process can suck to get to the official sign off it's a good shoot, and very very few people who've not been through the process think of how much suck it can be.

 

[dieselrealtor]

No worries, I appreciate your input & concern.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Yeah. So I set myself up for success as best I can regardless. I'd rather give my attorney a steak dinner to sell a jury instead of roadkill possum if it comes to that. I'd rather give the prosecutor every reason to not charge me if it's on the bubble.

Like you said, not everyone has experience in areas they give advice on. I don't get wrapped around the axle about what people decide to do, I just put information out based on on actual experience, seeing the sausage being made, being on both sides of the investigation, etc. so folks can make an informed decision. I have had a prosecutor ask me what kind of ammunition was used. Good shoot, IMO, and ultimately not charged. I suspect had I not advocated for the shooter things would have turned out different. Another was a legally bad shoot, shooting at fleeing criminal incident, where I thought the shooter was panicked and stupid rather than malevolent. I pushed the prosecutor not to charge and, ultimately, they didn't. Had I thought the person was an ******* looking to shoot somebody in the back, I wouldn't have went to bat for them and let the chips fall where they may.

Anyone who thinks optics don't matter or that 'a good shoot is a good shoot' is laughably wrong and has zero understanding of either human interaction or the legal system.

Perhaps of some relevance, in a meeting today this came up and I thought of this thread. I apologize to the OP for doing the thing he asked us not to do, but I will justify myself a bit by pointing out the original question has been answered well upthread.

2 cases pending prosecutorial decision were discussed that are waiting on crime lab ballistics testing. One is self defense. I have no doubt, literally none, that it's a good shoot and will not be filed. However the person who pulled that trigger is living under that Sword of Damocles until the ballistics are back. I can assure you that it is not a comfortable position to be in, and is often described as being more stressful than the incident itself. Anything that delays crime lab's ability to do testing can mean living with that sword hanging longer. Something else that's often overlooked in the 'a good shoot is a good shoot' bumper sticker advice. The process can suck to get to the official sign off it's a good shoot, and very very few people who've not been through the process think of how much suck it can be.

You are in a tough occupation both dangerous and depressing. I thank you for your service and wish the innocents a fair outcome.

But that is just my point. I, like many have lost the faith in out CJS. With lazy and underpaid overworked Prosecutors to corrupt judges and catch and release programs managed over martinis at lunch, it is a broken down mess and a needed budget is no where in sight anytime soon to fix it.

The only thing for certain about our CJS is that justice is uncertain…..for every body..

That my friend is why I train shoot ability first and fighting second. No one can guarantee fair justice no matter what the victim does, so there is no room in my mind for second guessing the events and the outcome.

Staying as legal as I can is my parameters and staying alive is my only goal in a fight.

I do understand your viewpoint, really I do, as I grew up with the same advice. But times have changed and the only thing I can control is me. Right or wrong, a shooting is ugly.

See you on the range

Trapper

 

[dieselrealtor]

My sincere hope & prayer is that I am never put in a position that I have to make a decision on if to pull the trigger on another person.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The only thing for certain about our CJS is that justice is uncertain…..for every body..

Which is a very different statement than:

The great handloading your own ammo will get you life in prison from a jury is controversial . That thinking goes right along with why did you go looking for a fight with a gun in the first place? Either way, you are going to need the best attorney on earth no matter what you do if you are in a lethal fight. It is difficult if not beyond human ability to second guess mayhem. Justice is expensive and even then can be non existent.

The first is correct. The second isn't. The vast majority of self defense shootings never get an attorney, period. They never need one. Even when they do dumb ****. Those don't make the media. They aren't discussed much. They are, to the non-participant, boring for a lack of a better term.

As far as corruption, human influence, etc. Sure. Not a new problem, and if it's more or less and in what degree is beyond the scope of the conversation and more energy than I feel like putting in at the moment. It's pretty much irrelevant to the topic, though.

People tend to want to do the right thing. There's often some disagreement on exactly where the line for the right thing is, but people broadly agree on the highpoints. People tend to also want to do the easy thing. If you make it easier for them to do the right thing, you've set yourself up for success to the best of your ability. For this discussion, factory ammo makes it easier to do the right thing.