Who has auto-annealling machine

[Dead Duck]

Who has auto-annealling machine

Some of the pews at church have the manual ones. I don't know how much they cost though.

 

[JeepHammer]

Hohn, you might figure out what part of the case this is

25x magnification, scaleable index microscope, dichromate treated.
The two black spots are hardness punches.

A harness test punch, 320x dichromate prepared.

Want to test your mounting & aiming skills?
Try hitting the wall of a sectioned case neck with a hardness punch for the hardness test!
Talk about a tiny target!

160x dichromate.

Case split long ways, mounted in acrylic, polished down to 2 microns, then punch the SKINNY EDGE of the neck!
Best have a steady hand & good aim!

After all, it is case necks & shoulders we are annealing...

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Yawn******,, Funny thing is, two folks here have offered to anneal the OP's brass and the type alot know it all aint one of them.
Offer stands OP, send me a PM and I will be more than glad to anneal your brass and show you how well the Annealeez machine works.

 

[VUPDblue]

Yawn******,, Funny thing is, two folks here have offered to anneal the OP's brass and the type alot know it all aint one of them.
Offer stands OP, send me a PM and I will be more than glad to anneal your brass and show you how well the Annealeez machine works.

You will stand-down and stop trolling JeepHammer. This is your one and only warning. There won't be another one and there won't be second chances. Chill out. Seriously.

 

[JeepHammer]

Doesn't mean anything to me, just annoying when someone denies science.
I have to value his opinion for it to be more than an annoyance.

I'm like the other guy, I won't do it for free, but 1k or less it won't take too long.
It will be cheaper if he shows up and feeds the machine bin!
Those angled back bins are a pain in the butt to feed, that's that's the reason I build drop tubes in my version so the case feeder can drop them without handling, bit those only do 5.56/.223

 

[JeepHammer]

This is the case floor, the extraction rim & groove is visible.
It's useless for neck annealing, but look at the three different strata layers just below and right of the punch marks (black dots) made when the case was formed from a cup of brass.

The gray layer the punch marks are in,
The distinct layer towards the outer part of the case,
And a third distinct flow layer that makes up the head.

These flow lines made when the brass was compressed enough to flow during the drawing process always make me wonder what in the world was going on in that die when the brass flowed to make these three different & distinct strata layers...?
You would *Think* the crystals/grains would be smaller & more compacted on the inside where the pin punch applied pressure, and on the outside where the brass was forced against the die,
But where in the world do you get the interior flow lines from? And such distinctly different colors also?

There almost has to be a 'Swirl' motion going on to produce this, and where does that come from when the pin is pressing directly down?

I've seen this in almost every decent brand of case, cheaper cases show distinct separation lines, and not this swirl bonded layering.

 

[SSE]

annealing

Thanks Clay Pigeon.
Thanks JeepHammer.

I think I will try the steel shot, lead pot way and if I muck it up I will get back to you guys.
Once again, THANKS

 

[JeepHammer]

If I can help, let me know.
Information is free, once you get going you might have questions.

I keep a lead pot or two simply because I do cast some bullets once in a while, the media was cheap enough, and the other stuff wasn't too expensive or complicated.
I converted my Giraud machine from gas to electro-magnetic induction simply because with that much power (heat energy) you really do need a digital timer, and that's gas jet or electro-magnetic for heat.
(It's impossible to attach a digital timer to a gas jet)

Lowering the heat, increasing the time makes things MUCH easier, much harder to screw up,
And let's face it, if you are shooting 100 a week, you don't need automation that costs a crap load.
Giraud machine cost $505 plus shipping out of the box, and each case size change is about $60.
And Giraud is single purpose, you can still make bullets with a lead pot!
The little Lee lead pot is about $50. No brainer if you aren't annealing in large volume.

Giraud link: https://www.giraudtool.com/giraud-cartridge-case-annealer.html

This guy at least gives warnings of salt bath annealing, most videos don't, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vwdTaDLz56Q&t=297s
He uses a proprietary salt mix, elemental salts can be MUCH more dangerous.
Same principal with sand, glass or steel media, just not as dangerous.

Notice he clearly says not to introduce ANYTHING into the salt, moisture, cleaner/polish, even dust from vibrating cleaning can cause serious issues.

Sorry, I couldn't find anything on YouTube on dry media annealing, it's just too new an idea I guess.

 

[Dead Duck]

So.....
I shoot at the range. I police my brass. I separate, de-prime, tumble, clean, ext... Then throw it into the hopper and pull the lever.... Simple, RIGHT?

At what point do I Anneal?
Why do I Anneal?
And - What the **** is Annealing?


Heating up the neck of my tapered brass.... is this a Heat Treating method?

Bath Salts??? Lead Pots???



CAN'T I JUST SIT, PULL MY LEVER AND BE DONE ALREADY???

 

[JeepHammer]

So.....
I shoot at the range. I police my brass. I separate, de-prime, tumble, clean, ext... Then throw it into the hopper and pull the lever.... Simple, RIGHT?

Well...
Wouldn't skipping cleanings make things more 'Simple'? Wouldn't cleaning every 5th or 10th loading make it more simplified?
Why both 'Tumble' & 'Clean'? Wouldn't one or the other be more simple?
How about skipping anything with a 'Bin', Bins sound like they complicate things...

At what point do I Anneal?
Why do I Anneal?
And - What the **** is Annealing?

What, stress relief, and therefore softening the brass after it's been work hardened from loading & firing.
Why, To keep the brass from cracking from work hardening, and to soften the neck for a more consistent neck tension (grip on the bullet).
When, depends on the brass & caliber/chamber pressure. The higher the pressure and the more you work the brass the more often it should be annealed.

Heating up the neck of my tapered brass.... is this a Heat Treating method?

Yes.
Heat treating can both harden, and soften metals.

Bath Salts??? Lead Pots???

Bath Salts are what women use in the bath, or what face eating zombies snort.
Salt stays liquid at relatively high temperatures, and there fore can be used as a SALT BATH to heat treat many metals.

Lead melting pots make a cheap and reliable source for the heat to melt the salt into a liquid.[/quote]

CAN'T I JUST SIT, PULL MY LEVER AND BE DONE ALREADY???

You don't have to pull a handle. I suggest you 'simplify' further and just beat the primer & bullet into the case with a rock...

10,720 post, and this one to be sarcastic?

-------

Not everyone wants to, or needs to anneal.
Annealing common straight wall pistol brass ranks right up there with the idea 9mm pistol brass needs to be trimmed...

How's that going by the way, are you getting anywhere with it?

Another none too efficient idea is reloading .22LR cases.
While a .22LR case can be ANNEALED, and die formed into a reasonable brass bullet jacket, reloading is more time & trouble than it's worth compared to the cost of .22LR ammo.

Being RELOADERS, we are in the RELOADING section of the forum.
Some RELOADERS correctly believe annealing is squarely in the purview of RELOADING.
Some RELOADERS want to extend the life of the brass as long as possible, since RELOADING isn't possible without viable brass.
Some RELOADERS have recently experienced severe brass shortages, another reason to extend life.
Some RELOADERS have brass that is a small fortune to aquire, on the rare occasions it's available at all.
Some RELOADERS do loads for extreme accuracy, and annealing very often helps with that objective, giving a consistent neck tension.
Some RELOADERS anneal occasionally, some anneal early & often, with early & often providing the longest life & best consistency.

Is this sufficiently sarcastic enough a reply, or do I need to work on it?

 

[SSE]

When I started shooting a lot of rds. with AR-10's into itty- bitty groups, I was reloading a lot of brass.
The consistent neck tension, with or without crimp is needed for accuracy with semi-auto reloads.
A lot of my brass has been reloaded 10 times or more and has too little grip, if you will, on the bullet

 

[JeepHammer]

I'm so sorry Dead Duck.
I thought with 10,000+ posts on a gun forum you were being sarcastic.
My apologies, truly.

Forming, loading & firing soft brass work hardens the brass, particularly the neck/shoulder where reloaders resize the most, and the chamber allows the brass to expand the most.

While it's not common knowledge, but common sense, softer brass grips the bullet better, more evenly.
And it releases the bullet better when sufficient pressure builds in the case during firing.

Annealing also extends the life of brass since most brass cracks at the neck first where it gets the most work hardening.

Among metals, brass is an odd ball with properties often going against the rules that govern other metals.
This is probably why brass is used for cartridge cases so commonly.
Cases have been made with everything from paper & fish skin, in metals everything from tin, zinc, copper, iron, steel, aluminum, and almost everything else you can think of, including alloys like bronze and everything else...

Gun guys are funny like that, they will try EVERYTHING! (And good on them for having an open mind!)

The current 70% copper, 30% zinc, brass alloy (with just +/- 3 or 4% either way) does such a good job, despite the cost of brass, has made it the most functional case material.

When you impart heat (energy) into metals, you excited the molecules, they move around & create more space between themselves.
About everything expands with heat, this is basic science.
When brass cools, it will restore the optimum spacing, removing the crushing & stress built up in the material.
Molecules with more spacing & less stress, the brass naturally becomes softer & more pliable, so they resize better, more consistently.

Brass also doesn't need to have controlled cooling, or 'Quenching', cooling rates don't effect the softness, or hardness of the brass once heated to the annealing temp point.
This greatly simplifies things, other materials have very specific thermal control conditions to harden or soften them.
All you need is heat & air for brass.

There are common ways to get the heat (thermal energy) I to brass.
The obvious is flames.
The closer your flame is to optimum temp, the longer the brass has to stay in the heat, but the less chance of overheating the brass and ruining it.
Keep in mind the brass needs TIME to heal itself, just heat won't do it correctly.

Some people use electro-magnetic induction to excite the molecules, the friction of molecules being moved around against each other produce heat, no flame required.

Some people use salts since some salts liquify, but don't vaporize at high temps.
Using a lead melting pot produces the heat, the thermal transfer from pot to case is done by the salt.
Super hot liquids can be dangerous, salts can have violent reactions to moisture, solvents, cleaners, even skin oil on the cases, so that can be quite dangerous.
Overheating salts can cause it to vapor, which will corrode lungs & skin, eyeballs, etc.
Some salts can actually explode/burn violently when overheated, so that's dangerous.

Using the lead pot for heat, you can use sand, glass beads, steel shot to transfer heat from pot to case.
It's a question of thermal efficiency here, sand & glass don't transfer heat as efficiently as steel.
You still have to remember you are dealing with temps that will melt flesh instantly, but it won't explode, burn violently, or corrode lungs...

To anneal or not to anneal,
What to anneal & what not to anneal,
When to anneal,
How to anneal,
These are questions YOU have to answer...

It's like trimming common as nails, short, low pressure, straight wall pistol cases...
They just don't stretch enough to worry about trimming, most people don't even check them, and since they are common as nails, why waste the time & effort trying to trim?

On the other hand, accuracy in a bottle neck rifle/cartridge depends on consistency, and a case that fits the rifle chamber, and holds/releases the bullet consistently comes in pretty handy, even if the cases are common as nails.
You aren't reloading for volume, you are reloading for consistency & accuracy you can't get with the average factory ammo.

If you are reloading common .223 blasting ammo, why waste the time?
I sure don't. Blasting ammo here is made up of cases, bullets & powder that didn't make the grade for extreme accuracy.
Not trash, but not top shelf.
The people that show up to waste blasting ammo don't know the difference and can go through several mags before they ever bother to aim...
As long as it goes 'BOOM' it puts a grin on their faces, and that's the point with blasting ammo.
They can't shoot 10 MOA, so 3 MOA ammo isn't the issue...

 

[JeepHammer]

When I started shooting a lot of rds. with AR-10's into itty- bitty groups, I was reloading a lot of brass.
The consistent neck tension, with or without crimp is needed for accuracy with semi-auto reloads.
A lot of my brass has been reloaded 10 times or more and has too little grip, if you will, on the bullet

I'm 80s/90s military trained long range shooter, so 7.62 NATO & .308 Win was what I was most familiar with, so it's what I shot the most on my own.

What you can't get through to most people is, you have the rifle you have...
Off the shelf or custom from the ground up, every rifle shoots differently in minor ways.
If you want better accuracy, you MUST have consistent ammo,
And the case is the base for all ammo, the more consistent it is, the better base line you get.

If annealing helps with that (and it has with every load I've developed, to one degree or another) then it's worth doing.
Same with consistent sizing, consistent flash hole size, consistent primer pocket size/depth, etc.
It's just part of case prep for me, and if I can do the annealing better with education on annealing, I do that too.

If you only need 5 reloads out of a case, don't need extreme accuracy (minute of deer heart accuracy) then setting up for annealing or spending time on it probably isn't in your best interest.
Plenty of guns shoot factory ammo just fine, I just can't stop myself from tinkering!