Why All Guns Are Always Loaded: It's NOT Just You

[JettaKnight]

I'll kick the hornet's nest. The people so caught up in the semantics are also the least likely to be dangerous anyway. Just like we can continue to debate among ourselves what "secure" means, someone will leave their gun under the sofa. That guy isn't participating in the lock box vs retention holster vs keyed safe debate. I grew up around guns and didn't learn there were 4 rules until pretty late in life, relatively speaking. I was taught to not point the gun at anything I didn't want to shoot and to not take it off safe and touch the trigger until I was ready to shoot. I was never told "if its loaded" or "assume its loaded" or anything like that. I was just taught it was a gun and to treat it like it was a gun.

I don't pretend every gun is loaded. I don't need to, because as ATM says I treat an empty gun like a loaded gun.

I also don't treat a gun that's mechanically unable to fire like I do a loaded/unloaded gun. If I want to inspect a bore, putting one of those fiber optic doo-dads in the chamber both renders the weapon unable to fire, proves 100% there is no cartridge in the chamber, and provides light to see what you're looking at. I can remove the bolt on a bolt gun, swing the cylinder out and hold it out on a revolver, etc. Any weapon can be rendered unable to fire with a few seconds of work or with a short length of nylon rope

Sweet, sweet validation! (and an overall good post to end this discussion for a month or two. )


Grammar Martinets rise up!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

As usual an INGOer restores balance to The Force: View From The Porch: "Stop Touching It!", Episode No. Whatever

 

[Dirtebiker]

I take them to the shooting range and teach them the proper way to treat and respect a firearm. Even the 3 yr old gets to go. But having a toy gun in their bedroom and pointing it at each other is a no no.

Yeah, I totally understand. But toy guns can certainly be used to teach safety. Of course, the choice is yours and your daughters.

 

[ATM]

As usual an INGOer restores balance to The Force: View From The Porch: "Stop Touching It!", Episode No. Whatever

"Handle all guns like guns."

It has a certain je ne sais quoi, non?

 

[ATM]

Nobody has come back with any downside to ditching rule #1 and just teaching people to practice the other three rules when they handle guns.

Is there any further support or reasoning for keeping rule #1 around? It seems like the discussion is simply stalled rather than resolved.

 

[ATM]

5 days? That's like an eternity on INGO.

In the absence of support for keeping "rule" #1, I remain convinced that it should be discarded from common use and henceforth superseded by the remaining 3 rules.

Perhaps we can create a generation of improved gun handling safety if we stop predicating the general rules upon loaded status, real or imagined.

 

[Tamara]

I remain convinced...

That's nice.

 

[ATM]

That's nice.

I doubt you are swayed by mere tradition and habit, either. It probably takes reason and logic, possibly even results.

I really did like the simplicity of "handle all guns like guns", it strengthened my conviction.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Rule #1 answers the important newbie question of "Why?" (or, if one is in Montgomery County, "Why come?").

In addition, Kirk gets to post videos from musicals: Fiddler on the roof - Tradition ( with subtitles ) - YouTube

 

[Birds Away]

Nobody has come back with any downside to ditching rule #1 and just teaching people to practice the other three rules when they handle guns.

Is there any further support or reasoning for keeping rule #1 around? It seems like the discussion is simply stalled rather than resolved.

Despite your arguments to the contrary, I still believe this discussion is one of pure semantics. I know you disagree and I'm okay with that.

 

[ATM]

Rule #1 answers the important newbie question of "Why?" (or, if one is in Montgomery County, "Why come?").

In addition, Kirk gets to post videos from musicals: Fiddler on the roof - Tradition ( with subtitles ) - YouTube

Why?

'Cause it's a GUN ...not because it's loaded. Guns have one primary purpose so we handle them safely at all times.

Don't create further problems down the road by setting them up to fail with a poor response to that question.

"Eez gon, eez not safe."

^ maybe something like that?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Why?

'Cause it's a GUN ...not because it's loaded.

"The gun's only got one job."

"Eez gon, eez not safe."

The temerity of using Jeff Cooper against me to make a valid point. I expect this sort of treachery from rhino, but this, this is too much.

I say good day to you, sir. Good day.

 

[ATM]

Despite your arguments to the contrary, I still believe this discussion is one of pure semantics. I know you disagree and I'm okay with that.

Consider it dropped. Semantics should be reserved for the remaining rules which have proven useful.

Good day, all!

 

[bwframe]

...I really did like the simplicity of "handle all guns like guns", it strengthened my conviction.

I'm sure you are good to use your own rules, my friend. Hopefully, your arguing the semantics will open a few more eyes, as that is the goal for us all. You cannot argue elimination or changing a rule without referring to "The Four Rules," so you can't help but lead folks to them.

The rest of us will just use the Four Rules proven by experts and time.

 

[yote hunter]

Guess I have been doing it wrong all these years. I treat all guns as if they are loaded even if I know they are not.

+1 Here too... First thing my dad tought me.... Thx dad ,R.I.P. knowing I will always remember it...

 

[JettaKnight]

In my rulebook, rule #1 is, "eez gon, eez not safe."

That way there's still four rules, (because every safety discussion revolves around four rules.


PS - I blame ATM for dragging me back into this thread. REPORTED.

 

[ATM]

I'm sure you are good to use your own rules, my friend. Hopefully, your arguing the semantics will open a few more eyes, as that is the goal for us all. You cannot argue elimination or changing a rule without referring to "The Four Rules," so you can't help but lead folks to them.

The rest of us will just use the Four Rules proven by experts and time.

Thanks! You guys just be ready to explain to folks why you believe they should adopt another "rule" which contemplates the loaded status of guns after I've already taught them that safe gun handling is accomplished with only three.

It should be an interesting conversation. I'd love to hear how you fare with them since nobody in this thread managed to articulate such a need.

Oh yeah, I wouldn't stress the proven part of your claim, either. There are far too many people that know and can recite those 4 rules who still handle guns unsafely, especially when they think they're unloaded for some odd reason.

Good luck.

 

[OWGEM]

IF the father had obeyed rule #1 would this have happened?

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...n-fires-rifle-killing-13-yr-old-half-bro.html

 

[ATM]

IF the father had obeyed rule #1 would this have happened?

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...n-fires-rifle-killing-13-yr-old-half-bro.html

Sadly, yes. He left a gun unattended and accessible to a child that shouldn't have been trusted to follow (and likely didn't even know) safe gun handling practices.

The father wasn't handling the gun at the time so none of the safe gun handling rules even applied to him at the moment of tragedy, only to the child he allowed to picked it up unsupervised.

The negligence of the father was of unsafe storage/access, critically important yet unrelated to the rules of gun handling being discussed.

There are likewise other important gun safety practices which should be adhered to yet have little or nothing to do with gun handling. I doubt most of those should be predicated upon presumed loaded status, either.

 

[EAS]

If #1 was done away with and 2 ~ 4 were followed...would safety be compromised? With the human factor (since we are all human right?) doesn't the addition of rule #1 make us vulnerable at times? After all we all know its not loaded because I looked and I unloaded it myself. Humans get lazy and don't always treat the gun as if it if is loaded because we know better.