Why don't the Unions buy the means of Production?

[Jludo]

I would disagree with that totally. Is she over the top? Oh yeah. 60 pages of monologue by Galt prove that. But the fundamental principles she lays down are spot on.

I started that monologue but ended up skipping it after like 15 pages, I've never read so much that didn't actually say anything. The story laid out her philosophy, the monologue should've been left out or at least trimmed dramatically.

 

[mmpsteve]

The problem with unions is the same thing that’s wrong with business. Both have a crony relationship with government.

Wrong. Many, dare I say most, US businesses have nothing whatsoever to do with government, other than pay taxes and try to file the onerous paperwork required to just stay in business.

Most legitimate US businesses simply try to create products or services that other businesses or consumers will value enough to purchase.

Jamil, your comment above shows you have good instincts as per Unions and possible motivations, but I assure you, most US business just want to survive, and maybe Earn a couple extra dollars, with the emphasis on earn, not finagle thru government pull.

 

[mmpsteve]

I started that monologue but ended up skipping it after like 15 pages, I've never read so much that didn't actually say anything. The story laid out her philosophy, the monologue should've been left out or at least trimmed dramatically.

I too skipped over the long monologue the first couple times. I did eventually read it all. I can't agree that it didn't say anything, but to say it was longer than necessary would be merciful.

 

[jamil]

Wrong. Many, dare I say most, US businesses have nothing whatsoever to do with government, other than pay taxes and try to file the onerous paperwork required to just stay in business.

Most legitimate US businesses simply try to create products or services that other businesses or consumers will value enough to purchase.

Jamil, your comment above shows you have good instincts as per Unions and possible motivations, but I assure you, most US business just want to survive, and maybe Earn a couple extra dollars, with the emphasis on earn, not finagle thru government pull.

There’s a military industrial complex, green industrial complex, banking industrial complex. That’s not an exhaustive list of the industries which lobby for laws that affect other tax payers. You can’t buy standard incandescent light bulbs because GE and Sylvania lobbied Congress to pass laws banning the manufacture. THAT’s cronyism.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

There’s a military industrial complex, green industrial complex, banking industrial complex. That’s not an exhaustive list of the industries which lobby for laws that affect other tax payers. You can’t buy standard incandescent light bulbs because GE and Sylvania lobbied Congress to pass laws banning the manufacture. THAT’s cronyism.

Y'all are talking past each other. Steve, I think, is talking Fred's Lawn Service or Bedford Limestone Co. and companies at that level that don't have enough clout to spin up their own cronyism.

 

[jamil]

Y'all are talking past each other. Steve, I think, is talking Fred's Lawn Service or Bedford Limestone Co. and companies at that level that don't have enough clout to spin up their own cronyism.

I know what Steve is talking about. Fred’s lawn service isn’t really what we’re ralking about in this thread.

 

[DRob]

I've played softball with a lot of UAW retirees for a couple of decades now. To a man, including one who was a union official, they say that particular union never did much for the regular hard working Joe. The big winners were the worthless SOBs who wouldn't hit a lick. The only exceptions were the union officials who got perks and pay Joe never dreamed of...............on Joe's dime.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Y'all are talking past each other. Steve, I think, is talking Fred's Lawn Service or Bedford Limestone Co. and companies at that level that don't have enough clout to spin up their own cronyism.

Until Fred's brother is in the mayor's office and he's getting a nice contract to mow city parks. Or Bedfore Limestone bids for a gov't contract vs Mrs. Bedford Limestone, which is 51% woman owned on paper.

Or you want a liquor license, and there's no more for sale in your county.

Or you need a zoning exemption in a small town.

At least in a small town, there's more interface between politics and business than most would assume, it's just at a lower level of the gov't.

 

[Spear Dane]

I've played softball with a lot of UAW retirees for a couple of decades now. To a man, including one who was a union official, they say that particular union never did much for the regular hard working Joe. The big winners were the worthless SOBs who wouldn't hit a lick. The only exceptions were the union officials who got perks and pay Joe never dreamed of...............on Joe's dime.

Oh yeah, I could tell you some stories. An ex FiL working at Allison in Indy who's only job was spend 2-3 hours a day forklifting trannies into trucks, and playing cards the rest of the day. For this he was paid (this was in the 90s) a bit over 50k a year. And he was a drop out to boot. Going to Ivy Tech and meeting Chrysler employees making TRIPLE time to attend CNC classes. Is it ANY wonder at all why union companies offshore as much as they can and our cars are crap?

 

[churchmouse]

Oh yeah, I could tell you some stories. An ex FiL working at Allison in Indy who's only job was spend 2-3 hours a day forklifting trannies into trucks, and playing cards the rest of the day. For this he was paid (this was in the 90s) a bit over 50k a year. And he was a drop out to boot. Going to Ivy Tech and meeting Chrysler employees making TRIPLE time to attend CNC classes. Is it ANY wonder at all why union companies offshore as much as they can and our cars are crap?

My father retired UAW from Allisons. There is a mindset among those who spent their entire lives inside under the florescent. I did not like it.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

My father retired UAW from Allisons. There is a mindset among those who spent their entire lives inside under the florescent. I did not like it.

I worked at Allison back in 1978-79 as a General Motors Institute student (co-op program). As a student, I was considered to be "management". I worked in various departments, but Time Study was "interesting" to say the least. If looks could kill as I was walking past the line of people waiting to clock out while carrying my clipboard with 3 stopwatches on it, I'd have been a dead man. I was only doing spot checks of some of the processes, but I had to go up to each machine operator and let them know that I was NOT going to be changing their "standard times" for their work. They didn't want anyone telling them that they might have to work a little faster.

Did another stint in Production Processes, trouble shooting problems found in testing. In one instance, some retainers on torque converters were failing in test. Tracked it down to one worker that was spinning the torque converter to get it to drop down on the splined center shaft in the transmission. He was grabbing it by the studs (where the retainers were threaded on) and spinning it clockwise. This was causing the retainers to rotate counter-clockwise and work their way up the studs. This made them flatten out when they were hooked up to the test machine. There were literally pallets of transmissions that had to have the torque converters re-installed because of this, which of course cost $$$.

I explained to him what was happening and asked him to spin the torque converter counter-clockwise instead and that would resolve the issue. He gave it a half-hearted spin, and when it failed to drop down onto the shaft the first time, he said, "See? Doesn't work." When I begged to differ, he got pissed and shut down the line and called his foreman over. Needless to say some of the behaviors I saw soured me on unions, or at least the UAW.

To be fair, there were a lot of good guys working there too, but there were also some that felt like since they had the union backing them, they could get away with anything.

 

[churchmouse]

I worked at Allison back in 1978-79 as a General Motors Institute student (co-op program). As a student, I was considered to be "management". I worked in various departments, but Time Study was "interesting" to say the least. If looks could kill as I was walking past the line of people waiting to clock out while carrying my clipboard with 3 stopwatches on it, I'd have been a dead man. I was only doing spot checks of some of the processes, but I had to go up to each machine operator and let them know that I was NOT going to be changing their "standard times" for their work. They didn't want anyone telling them that they might have to work a little faster.

Did another stint in Production Processes, trouble shooting problems found in testing. In once instance, some retainers on torque converters were failing in test. Tracked it down to one worker that was spinning the torque converter to get it to drop down on the splined center shaft in the transmission. He was grabbing it by the studs (where the retainers were threaded on) and spinning it clockwise. This was causing the retainers to rotate counter-clockwise and work their way up the studs. This made them flatten out when they were hooked up to the test machine.

I explained to him what was happening and asked him to spin the torque converter counter-clockwise instead and that would resolve the issue. He gave it a half-hearted spin, and when it failed to drop down onto the shaft the first time, he said, "See? Doesn't work." When I begged to differ, he got pissed and shut down the line and called his forman over. Needless to say some of the behaviors I saw soured me on unions, or at least the UAW.

To be fair, there were a lot of good guys working there too, but there were also some that felt like since they had the union backing them, they could get away with anything.

I agree that I know/knew a lot of great people that worked at Allisons/Chevrolet/Ford. But there were far to many of those you are referring to as well.
I worked at Allisons for 1 1/2 shifts. Just long enough to understand I was not meant to be among those folks.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I worked at Allison back in 1978-79 as a General Motors Institute student (co-op program). As a student, I was considered to be "management". I worked in various departments, but Time Study was "interesting" to say the least. If looks could kill as I was walking past the line of people waiting to clock out while carrying my clipboard with 3 stopwatches on it, I'd have been a dead man. I was only doing spot checks of some of the processes, but I had to go up to each machine operator and let them know that I was NOT going to be changing their "standard times" for their work. They didn't want anyone telling them that they might have to work a little faster.

Did another stint in Production Processes, trouble shooting problems found in testing. In once instance, some retainers on torque converters were failing in test. Tracked it down to one worker that was spinning the torque converter to get it to drop down on the splined center shaft in the transmission. He was grabbing it by the studs (where the retainers were threaded on) and spinning it clockwise. This was causing the retainers to rotate counter-clockwise and work their way up the studs. This made them flatten out when they were hooked up to the test machine. There were literally pallets of transmissions that had to have the torque converters re-installed because of this, which of course cost $$$.

I explained to him what was happening and asked him to spin the torque converter counter-clockwise instead and that would resolve the issue. He gave it a half-hearted spin, and when it failed to drop down onto the shaft the first time, he said, "See? Doesn't work." When I begged to differ, he got pissed and shut down the line and called his foreman over. Needless to say some of the behaviors I saw soured me on unions, or at least the UAW.

To be fair, there were a lot of good guys working there too, but there were also some that felt like since they had the union backing them, they could get away with anything.

I agree that I know/knew a lot of great people that worked at Allisons/Chevrolet/Ford. But there were far to many of those you are referring to as well.
I worked at Allisons for 1 1/2 shifts. Just long enough to understand I was not meant to be among those folks.

Like with most other things that involve people, it's that (roughly) 10% that causes all the problems, that have all day to dream up new ways to make your life miserable, that look for new and better ways to avoid doing the work they are getting paid good money to do. Most just want to do their job and go home at the end of the day.

 

[jamil]

Oh yeah, I could tell you some stories. An ex FiL working at Allison in Indy who's only job was spend 2-3 hours a day forklifting trannies into trucks...

I'm not gonna judge, but...

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Like with most other things that involve people, it's that (roughly) 10% that causes all the problems, that have all day to dream up new ways to make your life miserable, that look for new and better ways to avoid doing the work they are getting paid good money to do. Most just want to do their job and go home at the end of the day.

Yep, I'd agree with this. The good people outnumbered the bad, but boy did the bad do their best to make up for their lack of numbers.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Is it ANY wonder at all why union companies offshore as much as they can and our cars are crap?

Why are non-union companies offshoring?

 

[jamil]

Oh yeah, I could tell you some stories. An ex FiL working at Allison in Indy who's only job was spend 2-3 hours a day forklifting trannies into trucks, and playing cards the rest of the day. For this he was paid (this was in the 90s) a bit over 50k a year. And he was a drop out to boot. Going to Ivy Tech and meeting Chrysler employees making TRIPLE time to attend CNC classes. Is it ANY wonder at all why union companies offshore as much as they can and our cars are crap?

So here's both sides of it.

Non-union companies offshore too. One of the pro-union arguments is that non-union shops don't pay as much. Okay. But then it's hard to argue that point while also arguing that those higher wages don't impact offshoring. If a company's labor costs are high enough that offshoring becomes more attractive, then it stands to reason that union shops might off-shore more than non-union.

But, on the other hand, there are a lot more reasons to offshore than just labor costs related to higher wages and benefits for union shops. Regulations, including requirements which impact overall labor costs add to the attractiveness of offshoring. And those added labor costs due to regulation affect both union and non-union businesses.

In the US we'd like to have stuff made here, but our regulations tend to chase businesses overseas. For example, environmentally, we don't want to pollute our own back yards, so we make environmental regulations which cost companies money. Clean air and water is more expensive if you're making stuff, because making stuff is dirty. So, if the cost savings for making stuff overseas, even including shipping, is less than the cost of making it here, why wouldn't companies make it there?

So it's more complicated than just saying union companies offshore as much as they can. The union hasn't really a lot to do with that, except to the extent that it's the straw that breaks the camels back.

 

[churchmouse]

Like with most other things that involve people, it's that (roughly) 10% that causes all the problems, that have all day to dream up new ways to make your life miserable, that look for new and better ways to avoid doing the work they are getting paid good money to do. Most just want to do their job and go home at the end of the day.

Truth. I have had many other interactions at UAW facility's that tend to sower my opinions.
I have also met some pretty stellar people along that path.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Yep, I'd agree with this. The good people outnumbered the bad, but boy did the bad do their best to make up for their lack of numbers.

I've had guys that I rejoiced when they called in sick. We were all better off when they abused the absentee program.