Why Not Avoid Large Crowds When Possible?

[rhino]

Okay . . . we all see a lot of questions and discussions about whether or not you can carry at various events and venues. Nothing wrong with that.

However . . . why do people purposely put themselves into huge crowds of people in the first place? No matter how well trained and armed you are, anything bad that happens is magnified so much by the sheer numbers that it won't go well for anyone on the premises. No matter what you do, when among a huge crowd, you can not effectively control your immediate environment to any reasonable degree.

I understand sometimes you have no choice, like if it's your job, or your kid is graduating and the class is huge. However, a vast majority of the time, it's entirely voluntary.

Is it that important to see a concert or sporting event live?

Some may say yes, but I hope they understand that they are at the mercy of the crowd if it decides to move as a mob.

For me, it's definitely not worth it. I avoid such crowds as much as possible, and I don't think I'm missing anything important.

I suppose my point is, if you're thinking about whether or how to carry when you go such places, are you also truly and honestly considering the real threats to your safety (or your family's) just by going there? Is it really worth it? Really?

Maybe it is to some. I just don't see it.

 

[bigcraig]

I avoid crowds like the plague, not because I am concerned about my personal safety but I just don't like people in general. There are exceptions to this, like shooting a match or one of our "choir" meetings.

 

[abnk]

rhino, I am not a fan of large crowds either. However, I think that many people probably refuse to live in fear to change their lifestyles. Besides, what better way to test your skills if something does go bad?

 

[melensdad]

I think that many people probably refuse to live in fear to change their lifestyles.

Further, barring a terrorist type attack, building collapse, or other major catastrophe, events with large crowds are generally safe from violence and often enjoyable. We attended the Indiana High School Football finals and never felt in danger despite the crowds. Crowds often draw petty thieves, pickpockets, etc. But in terms of safety from violent attacks, events are a heck of a lot safer than many other activities.

 

[SavageEagle]

You make a great point. I don't go to many large events. Maybe car shows, I plan on attending the 1500 next weekend, but I don't go to too many large events. I went to see the Cowboys get their butts kicked by the Colts... LOL But I have considered what you are saying. It does seem pretty dangerous when you think about it. Chances of your gun being taken increase dramaticlly, the chances of your kids being taken, the mob decideing to riot, just so much could happen.

But then again, everytime we leave the house and get behind the wheel of a car, every second we risk horrible, terrifying death by a finite number of ways. Every time we walk out of the house, we take a chance of anything happening at anytime. There is NOTHING in this world that CAN'T kill you. The air you breath, the shoe you wear, the blade of grass... anything can kill you at any time. But what happens when everyone starts worrying about death all the time? Paranoia sets in like nothing we've ever seen. All hell would break loose.

Personally, I believe that if its your time to go, nothing will stop that. No matter how careful you are. Yes the chances are increased in a crowd. I do see what you are saying and you make an excellent point. But armed or not, you should always consider all the scenarios in a situation like that. Is the event worth the risk? That's the question you must ask yourself...

 

[465guy]

I'm don't avoid large crowds. I want to live my life and not miss anything. I enjoy sporting events and concerts so I go. One place you will not find me is at a soccer game in Europe.

 

[SavageEagle]

LOL if you can afford to fly to Europe for a Soccer Game and come home... More power to you! LOL I just don't like groups of large people. I come from a small town, grew up in the country, have few friends, but I don't mind large crowds of the right people. But you won't find me at some huge rally, any sporting event downtown(unless its the Monster Trucks!), or some "Expo". High School Football games, not such a big deal. Finals, maybe if I knew a player. But even then, I'd go to their game and their game only.

Stupid people are dangerous in large groups... Brady Campaign comes to mind.... so does Clinton Campaign rallies....

 

[465guy]

When was the last time you saw something go really wrong at a major sporting event in this country? And why are Monster Truck events ok?

 

[SavageEagle]

They are just something I enjoy. Like going to IRP when I can afford it. Oh, ORP I mean. I would rather save my money than waste it going to see the Colts play is all. Besides, like I said, stupid people are dangerous in large groups. Driving around Indianapolis is a pretty good indication of how many stupid people are out there. By stupid people, let me make this clear, I mean the idiot talking on his phone while driving that can't keep his vehicle under control and has "close calls" because he/she isn't paying attention. Or how about the people who walk around and don't care about nobody else around them besides themselves. Like the people who run into you without a second thought, the people who walk into a door in front of you knowing you are right behind them and let the door slam in your face. Or the person who thinks they know it all and parade around like God's gift to Humanity. Those are SOME of the kinds of stupid people I'm refering to. If those sorts of people aren't dangerous in large groups then I don't know who is...

 

[465guy]

I just don't know how to respond to that quite frankly.

 

[bwframe]

Very good points Rhino!

 

[rhino]

Thank you!

As far as "living in fear," goes, you can label it that, but I don't. My personal risk-benefit analysis of voluntarily putting myself in a big crowd doesn't favor the crowd. My interest in the events that occur is small anyway, but even if it were not, the potential problems are too many and too severe to motivate me to go there.

Certainly the chance of something happening is small, but in a risk analysis, you have to also consider the magnitude of the consequences if something does go wrong.

It's like being armed. Your chance of actually needing a gun is very small, perhaps vanishingly so if you purposely avoid trouble. However, if something does happen and you need a gun, you really, really need a gun.

Avoiding crowds when I can is a reasonable life choice for me, without a significant cost or drawbacks. When I'm responsible for others (like family members), I feel even more strongly about it.

 

[Paul]

Wow....lol...i go to many big events like the indy 500 every year, the formula1 race when we had it, sports games, ect. People are way to worried about places, big events are safe unless there was a terrorist attack or something. I feel more safe at the indy 500 than i do at walmart.

YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE, LIVE IT TO ITS FULLEST!

 

[SavageEagle]

Avoiding crowds when I can is a reasonable life choice for me, without a significant cost or drawbacks. When I'm responsible for others (like family members), I feel even more strongly about it.

I couldn't agree with you more. In today's society, at least around here, the chances of being pick-pocketed, or your children getting lost and snatched up is too great anymore. Until we can become a more civil society the risks are too high the larger the crowd. I choose to go to select events when I can afford it or if my father fits the bill. But there are other reasons I don't go to like the Colts games etc. I don't want to help pay people's multimillion dollar salaries when I can't even really afford to go in the first place. Too many people spend too much money on things they can sit at home and watch on TV without missing anything really interesting. I don't like shopping at Wal-Mart because I would rather help out a local buisness than someone who lives in a different country. Off subject. Point is, you are right. The larger the crowd, the bigger the chances are for something bad to happen. I also agree that you should live your life to the fullest too. But you should really weigh the risks before you make a decision too.

 

[melensdad]

. . .the risks are too high the larger the crowd. . .

I'd like to see some evidence that this statement is true.

Or is it just an commonly held misconception?

Obviously your risk of getting pick pocketed goes up in a big crowd, but is it really dangerous to be in a big crowd? I don't hear of many shootings, beatings or murders at baseball games, auto shows, or large conventions.

And yes, a child can get lost in a crowd, but they can get lost in a store, or a mall, or a cornfield.

From the standpoint of carrying a gun, we cannot pull our guns out if we get pick pocketed. We can pull them out if our lives are seriously threatened. But does that actually happen at large events?

 

[SavageEagle]

LOL I'm sure you wont find any studies on this. If someone finds one, please post a link... But I just feel that large crowds can become potentially dangerous. I don't mean to say that large crowds are always going to be dangerous, but you can find in the news reports of all the arrests for various violence that happened in the last few Black Expos downtown. I can think of two off hand this past expo where 2 guys got arrested for beating and robbing some guy for less than $100 and another incident of the same thing but guns were involved and I don't think they caught the assailent. I agree with Rhino's original statement about the crowd turning into a mob. If the crowd turns angry for whatever reason and decide to riot or what not, you are pretty much at the mercy of the mob. At least until you can find a way out.

 

[melensdad]

. . .you can find in the news reports of all the arrests for various violence that happened in the last few Black Expos downtown. . .

OK at the risk of sounding like a bigot, and I don't believe I am, the reality is that most of the violence in the urban areas occurs in:
minority areas of cities

• is typically black on black or brown on brown
• typically occurs in areas where divorce rates are higher than average
• typically occurs in areas where poverty is higher than average
• typically occurs in areas where school drop out rates are higher than average
• typically occurs in areas were unwed mothers & fatherless children are higher than average

I could not find relevant data on Indianapolis, but I did find a story about Baltimore.

The Baltimore Sun (and all the mainstream media) claim gun deaths and gun violence are a national scourge that must be met with strict common-sense gun laws, to prevent rampant violence in society. Everyone is affected, so everyone must be subject to controls.

But the reality seems to be different. In an effort to prove the "news" myth paraphrased above, The Baltimore Sun, which features standard anti-gun-rights bias in its reporting, published an interactive map of homicides in the Baltimore area.

Unfortunately for its inventors, the map only confirms what rights advocates have been declaring for decades -- it's not a gun problem, it's a demographic problem -- with social, economic and geographic components the political community refuses to admit. If they did, the fundamentally demographic nature of the enigma would emerge, and despite the horrifying facts, they would risk being called bad names.

The maps say it all. The data sets here are for all of 2007, Baltimore area, all forms of homicide (blue is choking, green is blunt force, red is shooting, black is stabbing, white is undetermined).

And don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger, blame the newspaper for letting the dirty little secret out -- it's not a gun or murder problem, it's a demographic problem.

These Baltimore Sun maps show a terrible problem but do not clarify who the murderers are.

Baltimore Sun map of PEOPLE murdered, 2007:

Baltimore Sun map of BLACKS murdered, 2007:

Baltimore Sun map of WHITES murdered, 2007:

"The lack of diversity is blatant and appalling," said one unidentified observer. Another suggested the results could reflect the city's makeup, but whites outnumber blacks there by more than two to one (3.5MM to 1.6MM). You can pick your own data and see the Baltimore Sun's results, for time periods, races, ages, homicide types, genders and more. Play with the map yourself, it's fun. Here is a link: Baltimore Homicides - baltimoresun.com

So it seems to me that if you want to be safe there is one very simple thing you can do:

• Stay out of minority communities that fit the list of criteria I posted above.

 

[NEOCON]

I avoid crowds. I use to go to NASCAR races but people have become so self centered and just plain rude with drinking a hell raising being more important than racing. I don't think I am really in danger but I feel as though I am closer to getting my buttons pushed when I am in such an enviroment. So I just stay home and avoid such events.

 

[RogerB]

If the crowd turns angry for whatever reason and decide to riot or what not, you are pretty much at the mercy of the mob. At least until you can find a way out.

I agree with this statement... Generally speaking if a major event say such as the 2012 Super Bowl were to have a terrorist attack. It would probably be on a grander scale than what a handgun could make a difference. <insert all the Hollywood what if's here>

Personally I think the choice of when and why to reveal that your armed plays into it, as well as the element of surprise of such. To me a route of egress/escape of a bad situation is always important. Considering armed confrontations are typically over very quickly. Whether they end in your favor or otherwise, you better have an idea of a way out or to further safety etc.

Just throwing my two cents in...carry on.

opcorn2:

 

[SavageEagle]

To me a route of egress/escape of a bad situation is always important. Considering armed confrontations are typically over very quickly. Whether they end in your favor or otherwise, you better have an idea of a way out or to further safety etc.

There is no more a more true statement than this. Everywhere I go, I'm always looking for the best, easiest, and easier route to escape anyway I can. Everyone would benefit from such thinking. The point to this is always be aware of the potential escape routes. Just because there is a slim chance of something like a SHTF happen at a large gathering of any sort, there is still that chance.

What about that gunman in Colorado who blew away the church goers until he was stopped by an armed patron? Nobody thinks this type of thing will happen, but it did. You would think you would be safe in church... Thank GOD for armed good guys/gals like us!