Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo

[9mmfan]

Just saw this on another forum. It was very interesting and has made me rethink my everyday carry situation. Now I'm not a cop (nor do I play one on TV) but you never know what you might run into going about your everyday life.

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

 

[IndyDave1776]

This brings up the other side of an issue we have visited before. Here we have an officer who barely managed to survive an encounter with a dangerous individual escaping from a serious crime. I noticed the reference to those providing medical care about the number of times the officer shot the man WHILE THAT INDIVIDUAL WAS ACTIVELY TRYING TO KILL HIM. I see no room whatsoever to question the reasonable nature of continuing to act in the attempt to nullify an active threat.

The unfortunate truth is that there will be this kind of questioning of what is beyond question a reasonable response so long as we have a supply of video in circulation featuring such things as an officer dumping a magazine into a man lying unresponsive on the ground. It is a shame that someone like this officer who was barely able to fend off an attack has to deal with image problems from people who are not nearly his equal. Also shameful is the division it causes in the community as we alternately hear arguments that anyone who would have a problem with the cop filling an unresponsive suspect full of lead is automatically a cop hater, and conversely anyone who would defend a cop who put up a significant fight and barely managed to come out alive is a supporter of the new police state.

I suppose that, in a way, the advice I give parents complaining that their children don't respect them fits here as well: If you want respect, start by being respectable. In this case, weeding out those who are unfit is the first step such that the department is respectable. If that were to be commonplace among departments, questions like the one raised likely would not be raised against an officer as the one in this case whose actions were thoroughly righteous.

 

[BiscuitNaBasket]

Paranoia?

Gramins shook his head and said “Preparation.”

Good article! Amazing story. I'm glad the officer made it out of that alive.

 

[VUPDblue]

where is the thread about the triple mag pouches?

 

[jeeper038]

Good read.

 

[HandK]

I was taught a pair and a spare! I also keep 5 extra mags!! Your having a bad day when your in a gun fight! your having a really bad day if your in a gun fight with not enough ammo!!

 

[Rbadger]

Wow THAT is an amazing story. The comments after by other LEO's were pretty good too. And just remember kids the government says you only NEED a ten round magazine if they decide to let you keep the guns at all. I think stories like this go a long way in disproving both of those sentiments.

 

[BoldCourageousWoman]

I can't believe the guy wasn't doped up on something! Maybe some of that synthetic "bath salts" crape that doesn't show up in normal drug tests. Incredible story. Makes me think I may need to rethink how much extra I carry.

 

[10mm Snack Pack]

I carry 146

 

[Aaron1776]

Yeah I recently read this story about a week ago when a fellow INGO member sent it to me via email.
Overall, the officer performed admirably and finally figured out how to take his assailent down. The only thing I could critique about this performance is not going for the head sooner, but then again in real life you're not always going to think "by the book". Human beings are incredibly resiliant creatures. We are easy to wound, but really hard to kill. Your brain and body is powerful enough that, if you're in the right mindset, a handgun just isn't going to stop you without a shot to the head or heart. (Heck men have taken strings of rifle caliber shots and kept moving long enough to clear out machinegun nests) This officer finally figured out it was time for the instant incapacitation shot. Good on him.

That being said, I found his conclusion and "fix" for the "problem" absurd. He still had a mag or two plus 4 rds of .45 in his gun at the end of the fight, aka he never ran out of ammo, and his solution was to switch to a lower caliber, doing less damage, and add more mags?
Why not just carry more .45 mags next time?
Why not leave your long guns in a more accessable location?
Why not just learn to go straight for the head when the first several shots to the torso with .45 JHP don't work?
If the guy doesn't go down with 13, .45 caliber holes in him, 20, 9mm holes aren't going to do him in either. The headshot is your only option.....or you just fall back and let him bleed out in a few minutes. Not like he is going to make it far.

 

[ViperJock]

That being said, I found his conclusion and "fix" for the "problem" absurd. He still had a mag or two plus 4 rds of .45 in his gun at the end of the fight, aka he never ran out of ammo, and his solution was to switch to a lower caliber, doing less damage, and add more mags?

He was almost done with his 3rd mag,leaving him a 10 round mag of 9mm.

Why not just carry more .45 mags next time?

I assume because 1 9mm mag carries more than 1 .45mag And he learned that a .45 doesn't kill any better than a 9.

Why not leave your long guns in a more accessable location?

He moved his AR to a better position.

Why not just learn to go straight for the head when the first several shots to the torso with .45 JHP don't work?

Entire encounter took 56 seconds. IT was a firefight for his life. He was on the move for cover and firing simultaneously.

If the guy doesn't go down with 13, .45 caliber holes in him, 20, 9mm holes aren't going to do him in either. The headshot is your only option.....or you just fall back and let him bleed out in a few minutes. Not like he is going to make it far.

He was actively attacking, there was no good cover, and the cop probably didn't know thatthe guy had been fatally hit until it was over.[/QUOTE]

Read the OP much? Pretty poor monday morning QB there guy....

Interesting story OP, lots to be learned, you know, if you actually read it.

 

[Aaron1776]

He was almost done with his 3rd mag,leaving him a 10 round mag of 9mm:
I may have counted the mags he had on him incorrectly, but I thought there was another two on his chest. (five total) Again. Even if he only had three, That doesn't correct my original point. He didn't run out.


I assume because 1 9mm mag carries more than 1 .45mag And he learned that a .45 doesn't kill any better than a 9.
This assertion is absolutely absurd and not supported by statistical evidence. You're fooling yourself if you think the 9mm does just as much damage as a .45 JHP.

He moved his AR to a better position.
From what I remember his AR was in the trunk.....which is why he never used it. Again, the point of the comment was that moving the AR was a better solution than switching to less effective caliber. If he did so, great.

Entire encounter took 56 seconds. IT was a firefight for his life. He was on the move for cover and firing simultaneously.
I gave him credit for that.


He was actively attacking, there was no good cover, and the cop probably didn't know thatthe guy had been fatally hit until it was over.
He actually says in the story that he saw the rounds colliding with this chest. Thist was just a suggestion. Again I gave the cop credit because we can't think by the book under stress.
Inducing stress innoculation into training would help, also, since he has now killed, his next encounter will be "easier" for him to think through it as his brain will be more "used" to the situation.
As anyone who has been in a violent encounter can tell you.
[/QUOTE]

Read the OP much? Pretty poor monday morning QB there guy....

Interesting story OP, lots to be learned, you know, if you actually read it.
I've read the story three times now. Thanks. This story isn't exactly recent news. If I'm fuzzy on a few of the details, so sue me. Reading it for a fourth time just wasn't on my list of "fun things to do".

Also. Just carrying more .45 mags still fixes the assumed "problem". I don't see how you can get around that logic.
The only justification for a 9mm would be the carry the same amount of rounds with less weight, but at the sacrifice of "stopping power". This logic was not asserted in the text.
Again, in the cop's situation, 20 9mm holes won't do it if 13-14 .45 cal holes don't. Headshot is your only answer at that point.

How about thinking through your comments before going for the insult? I praised the cop right away for his valor and said my critiques were minor. Switching to the 9mm is still an absurd "fix" when you could just bring more .45

The man did well, but the only way we learn is by disecting his actions and discussing better possible solutions.

 

[Aaron1776]

The lesson learned here isn't "I need to increase my round count for my handgun" as this cop seemed to take away.
The lesson here is that handguns suck. Period. If you know you're headed into an armed confrontation, you need to have a rifle or shotgun accessable immediately before you even arrive on scene.
If that isn't possible, then you need to understand that it is shot placement that matters most. The 9mm vs. .45 debate misses the point entirely.
Yes, you get more 9mms in a mag.
But .45s increase your chances of bringing a man down, (That's undeniable physical fact. Bigger hole + deeper penetration on average = more damage) but you get fewer of them.

Which one you carry is up to you and your preferencs. Pick the guns you shoot best. For me it's either a 1911 operator or a M&P 9mm. I shoot them both well, and which one I carry depends on the situation.

If you don't connect with vital areas, you won't bring him down. If you connect with vital areas and he's still ticking, you need to move to the head right away. Something not always stressed during training.

You can carry 145 9mm rounds. But it won't do jack for you when the cokehead and/or adrenaline flooded psychopath takes 20 rds to the torso, grabs his SKS, and puts you down before bleeding out. (Which is a senario that could have easily happened to the cop. His survival was due to both skill and luck)

 

[Caleb]

couple thoughts...we need to start carrying the most effective and lethal round for what caliber we carry, we need to train and practice under stress to improve our shot placement, keep long guns accessible where and when possible, carry more then 1 extra mag on your person....

 

[CTS]

I thought one .45 had enough stopping power to put down an elephant?! Clearly this is leftist propaganda trying to convince people the .45 isn't the best round of all time. If you need more than one shot, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Caleb]

I thought one .45 had enough stopping power to put down an elephant?! Clearly this is leftist propaganda trying to convince people the .45 isn't the best round of all time. If you need more than one shot, you're doing it wrong.

Only way to stop somebody with one shot is in between the eyeballs

 

[GIJEW]

I can't believe the guy wasn't doped up on something! Maybe some of that synthetic "bath salts" crape that doesn't show up in normal drug tests. Incredible story. Makes me think I may need to rethink how much extra I carry.

How about adrenalin? This example is 2nd hand because I was among those providing supporting fire but FWIW, a friend who was with the platoon flanking the enemy position told of finding a 20' trail of blood leading to a dead enemy with 3/4 of his head left (must've mostly been part of the 7/8 of our brain that we supposedly don't use).
Agreed, the only reason not to carry all the ammo you can, is because it would defeat the purpose of CCW--you open carry guys can get your rem. 870

 

[IndyBeerman]

Snip

This assertion is absolutely absurd and not supported by statistical evidence. You're fooling yourself if you think the 9mm does just as much damage as a .45 JHP.

Snip

How about thinking through your comments before going for the insult? I praised the cop right away for his valor and said my critiques were minor. Switching to the 9mm is still an absurd "fix" when you could just bring more .45

I guess since you've seen the Saving Private Ryan gif, that you're a firm believer that .45 blows up tanks.

Today's handgun rounds in 9mm, .40 and .45 are all very effective with their stopping power, too many people have proven that.

I'll take my Taurus 809 9mm with a 17 round mag everyday for EDC over my Taurus 845 .45 with a 12 round mag because I have more rounds.

You'll need those rounds because you're not shooting at a paper targets that shoots back.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I guess you can train and plan to the aberration. How many shootings will take that many rounds OR GIVE YOU ENOUGH TIME TO FIRE THAT MANY ROUNDS? Not many. You can carry more rounds, but you can't make more time.

I wonder if he'll switch back when his 9mm fails to sufficiently penetrate an intermediate barrier, or hits safety glass and prematurely fragments causing minimal damage to the target.

Also, having a long gun immediately accessible sounds great, but I can tell you the ones saying that aren't cops. If you are immediately confronted by a violent suspect, trying to get your gun out of even the fastest racks is a good way to die. The whole fight took less than a minute. Spending 10 seconds of that stationary getting a gun out of the racK? You died.

If it turns into a pursuit, I'd rather not have my shotgun unsecure flopping around in the passenger seat, and if its a foot bail I'd rather not have my shotgun unsecure for just anyone to reach in and steal it.

 

[Aaron1776]

I guess since you've seen the Saving Private Ryan gif, that you're a firm believer that .45 blows up tanks.

Today's handgun rounds in 9mm, .40 and .45 are all very effective with their stopping power, too many people have proven that.

I'll take my Taurus 809 9mm with a 17 round mag everyday for EDC over my Taurus 845 .45 with a 12 round mag because I have more rounds.

You'll need those rounds because you're not shooting at a paper targets that shoots back.

I work in an ER. See gunshot wounds all of the time.
Been professionally trained by men who have killed for a living on multiple occassions spanning 10 years. (Ranging from drill instructors to ex spec ops)
Done lots of research on the statistical averages of handgun rounds and their performance.
Also admitted to carrying a 9mm in the same thread.

Perhaps next time you should read everything I said as I pointed out that handguns of all calibers lack "stopping power"....put in quotations because it's nothing more than idea.
So I'm going to go ahead and reiterate this for you: 9mm doesn't do as much damage as a .45. Period. They are both good rounds with positives and negatives. .45 increases your chances. (good for low time engagements) 9mm gives you more rounds (good for suppression). I carry both on a regular basis. The .45 vs 9mm debate completely misses the point. Shot placement is what matters. Carry what you personally shoot best. Use a long gun if you can.
There. I've now said it all twice.

But thanks for playing.