Why shoot rifles this way?

[jeremy]

Extending the support arm does not increase frontal target signature by an appreciable degree, IMO.

Front view:

Ahhh... The side pics appeared to say a different story. Thanks. Can this be done while wearing 60+ pounds of vest?

 

[ihateiraq]

Kinda what my thinking is also. Something for the competition world and part time tactical guys. I am thinking that would be almost impossible to do in DAPS.

i concur. we only had to wear them up in the turret thankfully. daps made it almost impossible to pee. and that was even w/ my stock fully collapsed...

 

[shooter521]

Can this be done while wearing 60+ pounds of vest?

Maybe not as "dynamically" as you normally would, but the basic position should still be sound, as long as you have the ability to extend the support arm and adjust the stock to accommodate for the extra bulk on your body. Costa, Travis Haley and their students have been able to utilize this technique while wearing vests/chest rigs/etc.

 

[ihateiraq]

Maybe not as "dynamically" as you normally would, but the basic position should still be sound, as long as you have the ability to extend the support arm and adjust the stock to accommodate for the extra bulk on your body. Costa, Travis Haley and their students have been able to utilize this technique while wearing vests/chest rigs/etc.

theres a large difference between civilian body armor and military though. an iba wont even allow your arms to lie flat against your sides.

 

[shooter521]

theres a large difference between civilian body armor and military though. an iba wont even allow your arms to lie flat against your sides.

If you're talking the full meal deal with side plates, shoulder protectors, etc, then you're probably right.

 

[ihateiraq]

If you're talking the full meal deal with side plates, shoulder protectors, etc, then you're probably right.

dont tell anyone, but about 3 months into my tour i took the side plates out.

 

[Cwood]

Also, remember Costa was a Coastie their armor requirement is different then a regular ground pounders.

 

[shooter521]

Also, remember Costa was a Coastie

But we like him anyway!

 

[ihateiraq]

that explains his beard.

 

[tyler34]

dont tell anyone, but about 3 months into my tour i took the side plates out.

your secret is safe with the internet

 

[roscott]

Wow. So many pretty guns on this thread!

Must...look...away...before...money...leaves...

 

[jeremy]

Maybe not as "dynamically" as you normally would, but the basic position should still be sound, as long as you have the ability to extend the support arm and adjust the stock to accommodate for the extra bulk on your body. Costa, Travis Haley and their students have been able to utilize this technique while wearing vests/chest rigs/etc.

theres a large difference between civilian body armor and military though. an iba wont even allow your arms to lie flat against your sides.

If you're talking the full meal deal with side plates, shoulder protectors, etc, then you're probably right.

I am talking the full meal deal. The vests I have seen most Sillyvillains displaying either here or competitions would not be something that you would really want in a true hot spot.

I am a firm believer in train as you fight, because you will fight as you have trained. So if this is not something that I can do in my full fighting kit. I will adapt my style if it proves beneficial. If not oh well.

 

[TFin04]

I was never taught to shoot that way but from my own evolution in rifle work have ended up there. It just feels natural to me and having my hand out further I feel that I can control the gun better. It is also very similar to the way I hold my handgun.

My AK has an aimpoint on the top and a flashlight on the left and the 'nook' between the two is a comfortable spot for my thumb to rest. This also keeps my palm off the Ultimak rail, which gets blazing hot after any duration of shooting. This hand placement is the sole reason I'm still using a 30mm aimpoint and not one of the new micros.

 

[Steve MI]

I have ran that postion off and on for a while now

it can be very taxing on those not in good physical strength I have ran it while wearing My RAV with soft and hard plates my side plates and 6 mag m4 loadout 2 pistol mags, smoke. admin pouch and VOK,

I fin dit a bit easier to a certian degree since the suport arm is crooked out more

 

[TFin04]

I have ran that postion off and on for a while now

 

[ACT II]

To add to what some of the others wrote . . .

Shooter521 is indeed correct that the technique arose in the 3-gun/multi-gun/practical rifle competition world. As with many other techniques, it was developed to get better results, tested by time, and it's the current winner. Maybe someone will think of something better someday.

Zoub is also correct that it arose from shotgun shooting. 3-gun also includes shotgun, and the technique of using your support hand to steer and to have your support hand's forefinger pointed at the target along the fore end has been around quite a while in the traditional aerial clay shooting shotgun sports (watch Kim Rhode shoot some time!). I don't know who thought to try it with rifle, but it probably started passing from person to person in the mid to late 1990s.

The primary advantage is efficiency in "driving" the gun, whether from your ready position to get onto target/threat, or to transition from one target/threat to another as rapidly as possible. It makes good sense in terms of the physics involved. Moving the rifle (or shotgun) involves more rotation than translation. That means it's all about applying torque to get maximum angular acceleration, both in getting the gun moving as quickly as possible as well as (just as importantly!) stopping the gun as quickly as possible. In other words, you get from target to target more quickly and you're less likely to overswing. Moving your support hand as far forward as possible lengthens your lever (i.e. moment arm), which means more torque for a given applied force, which ultimately means quicker starting and stopping of the business end of the rifle.

Another benefit is that it does in fact help minimize muzzle rise. When more your arm is extended, your natural tendency is to pull backward toward your shoulder. Pulling into the shoulder minimizes movement of the muzzle due to recoil.

It's a win-win.

Now, can everyone do it and will it work well for everyone? Probably yes and the first, and maybe on the second. In my case (and those who know me will confirm), I have stubby T-Rex arms. There is a limit to how far I can extend my support arm without excessive discomfort. So, I put my support hand as far forward as I can put it and still shoot. Slow1911s is the opposite ... he's a full two meters tall and has arms like Kareem Abdul Jabbar. He puts his support hand beside where the front sight base would be on his rifle, and it's a 20-inch barrel with a full length handguard. He could probably do well with an extended handguard that allowed him to move that hand even farther forward.

Ultimately, the only way to know if it will work for you is to try it while applying some objective standard. Get a shot timer and a buddy. Do some drills that include snapping up from your ready position to one shot on target and then some that involve transitions among multiple targets. Time yourself doing them the way you do it now (several times), then push your support hand as far forward as possible, point your finger at the target, and time yourself (several times). The timer won't lie to you.

Finally, it probably needs to be said again, this technique is good for just about any application where you to need to get accurate hits onto target as quickly as possible. That means practical/action competition as well as personal defense as well as close quarters and medium range combat.

 

[Zoub]

Thanks ACT.

Yeah to me it looks no different then the guys who taught me in the 70's on a trap pad. I can see where it is better suited to lighter, well balanced, shorter guns and not great when you have a ton of gear on.

In the end eyes, hands and projectile all go in the same direction.

I think to put it in laymans terms, the closer your hand is to the muzzle the quicker you can rotate the gun on it's axis. Nobody sweeps the floor with their hands next to each other on the broom handle. Short arms equals shorter barrel for same effect. Makes a good case for owning mid length AR's

This has been the one advantage I see for a Saiga 12 in gaming. Weight centered between your hands just like an AR.

T-Rex would use 2 handguns

 

[Steve MI]

One issue is i have found guys whom shoot a lot have no trouble stop start gun drives with the VFG or standard squared up fighting stance per say. its again as we know the amout of time on the gun and the person driving it

I like both postions ...First person i saw it from was BC a few years back

 

[jeremy]

I have ran that postion off and on for a while now

it can be very taxing on those not in good physical strength I have ran it while wearing My RAV with soft and hard plates my side plates and 6 mag m4 loadout 2 pistol mags, smoke. admin pouch and VOK,

I fin dit a bit easier to a certian degree since the suport arm is crooked out more

I wish I could use my vest instead of the IOTV and DAPS that they say I have to run. The IOTV is just plain uncomfortable to start with, and with arms fully extended... Not to mention upon further review of photo's here, I think having my arms up like that would allow my DAPS to lose their effectiveness...