Would it have been justified to draw a firearm.

[rjc2rjc]

The other day I was walking into the Lowes hardware store. As I was walking across the the drive between the parking spots and the front of the store there was a van sitting there running. As I got into the middle of the drive a man came running out of the store and dove into the passenger side back of van yelling at the driver to GO GO GO MOTHER BLEEPER GO.

I knew what was going on right away. But I hadn't relized where I was standing. The driver started yelling at the guy that jumped in saying," he wasnt going to go to jail" but then punched the gas with me standing about 20 ft infront of the van. i was able to get out of the way but only because I took a couple giant steps to get out of the way.

Now with that story told. the way I am thinking is. i was able to take the giant steps to get out of the way but barely. So one could say sence I was able to get out of the way that drawing the firearm would have been a no no.

An argument could also been made that they were comitting a crime and running me over with a van in that crime makes the van a deadly weapon and drawing would have been an adequate responce.

And so you know i am still waiting on my permit and was not in possesion of a firearm. This has just been in my head every since it happened.
Did I feel my life was in danger yes until I got that last step out of the way. What if I wasnt able to take those steps. Say I was an elderly man with a permit to have a firearm and couldnt have taken those steps.



After talking to the lady at the counter I found out I was almost ran over so the guy could steal 2 cordless drills.

 

[Evermoore]

I would say no. People almost get run over all the time. I doubt a court would side with you on this one.

 

[IndyGunworks]

No, It would have taken you longer to get out of the way than to have drawn your weapon. Lawyers would have had a hayday w/ this one. You clearly had an easier nonlethal method of getting yourself out of harms way.

 

[rooster]

THE BEHAVIOR OF BULLETS

IANAL and will not comment on legality bc its arguable both ways however on a practical note firing into an automobile through glass presents a lot of challenges due to deflection and bullet deformation.

I probably would have just called 911 after stepping out of the way and given them the plate number and description of the vehicle,persons and what happened.

 

[esrice]

Your primary concern is to survive, right? So which would've increased your chances for survival-- jumping out of the way or standing your ground and shooting?

Remember that just because something is justified or legal doesn't mean it's the best course of action.

I think the simple act of moving is the better choice in the circumstances you've outlined. Even if you managed to score some awesome incapacitating hits on the driver you'd still be in the path of the van. You and the bad guy both dying is still a "fail".

 

[rjc2rjc]

No, It would have taken you longer to get out of the way than to have drawn your weapon. Lawyers would have had a hayday w/ this one. You clearly had an easier nonlethal method of getting yourself out of harms way.

That is the way i see it i was able to move out of the way and it was easyer for me to do that. To be honest getting out of the way was my first thought.

Here lies the question that if i wasnt able to. Say because i was hadicaped or elderly or for what ever reason?

 

[Liberty Sanders]

I would say that you are over-analyzing the situation.

Were you in imminent danger of death or grave bodily harm?

If the answer is yes, you may both draw and use your firearm.

If the answer is no, it is inadvisable.

 

[jerryv]

I agree with the comments of others .. this is not a situation where it would be appropriate to draw a weapon. Shooting toward a moving vehicle in a potentially crowded parking lot is too uncertain, even if it were justified.

I doubt that a cop would even have drawn a weapon, and even if so he would not have shot. What he would have done, and what you should have done, is gotten the license number ..

 

[rjc2rjc]

The manager was standing there taking the plate number as i was taking in the situation.

 

[wolfman]

That is the way i see it i was able to move out of the way and it was easyer for me to do that. To be honest getting out of the way was my first thought.

Here lies the question that if i wasnt able to. Say because i was hadicaped or elderly or for what ever reason?

Then, most likely, you would have been dead.

Considering your scenario implies that you are to be physically unable to move out of the way because of age or handicap, I would offer up the opinion that you would also be unable to initiate the draw stroke, draw, aim, and fire, in time either.

 

[ModernGunner]

[

I doubt that a cop would even have drawn a weapon, and even if so he would not have shot. What he would have done, and what you should have done, is gotten the license number ..

Hmmm, you sure don't know the same cops I know. And I know a lot of 'em.

Wow, absolutely NONE of the previous responses have answered the OP's actual question. Which was, IF he was someone who could NOT as easily have jumped out of the way, would drawing his weapon have been justified?

Yes, of course the OP would've been justified.

Had the OP been armed, it would have been both justified AND prudent to draw a weapon WHILE also trying to clear out of the way.

Folks here are ASSUMING that the driver in the van was just facilitating an escape. How did YOU determine that? How do YOU know that the intention of the driver wasn't purposely to run over and kill the OP in an attempt to eliminate an eyewitness?

There is NO information provided here on the criminal background of these, now KNOWN, criminals. How do YOU know they're not spree killers or hopped up on something, or something similar? You're just ASSUMING they're 'not really bad guys'? Just some guys HOPING that an innocent citizen jumps out of the way to keep from being killed? Is THAT the 'logic'?

The FACT is, we do NOT know. What the OP DID know (based on his information) was that these guys had ALREADY perpetrated a crime. They were also fleeing, again in continuation and furtherance of a crime in progress.

Therefore, it is reasonable and prudent to act based on the premise that they will continue their criminal activity until stopped. Therefore, for the OP, BOTH getting out of the way AND drawing a weapon are reasonable and prudent.

Depending on the specifics, which aren't given here, it quite likely would have been reasonable, prudent, and justified to fire his firearm (had he one, and a clear shot) to facilitate stopping the driver from attacking with that vehicle.

Actually, because (according to the OP) the driver made no attempt to slow down or stop to keep from hitting the OP, it was NOT a 'potential accident', it was a vehicular homicide in progress. Since the OP was able to jump from harm, it is still an attempted vehicular homicide. Which carries the same severity and penalty as if they were able to actually run down the OP. The criminals are NOT permitted to benefit from their incompetence in perpetrating a crime.

Please, do NOT bet your life on your 'certain ability' on a given day to clear out of the way of someone that is trying to run you down. Don't get yourself seriously injured or killed by thinking you can 'get out of the way in the nick of time' when someone is intentionally aiming a 2-ton weapon at you.

 

[No2rdame]

Agreed with other posters. As described, the incident likely occurred too quickly for you to have been able to draw and defend yourself so stepping aside was the best course of action. Plus, while they could've hit you it sounds quite obvious that they were not trying to harm you. If, on the other hand, the van swerved through the parking lot to try and hit you then you may have had a valid case for self defense.

 

[Denny347]

I would have drawn but it would be very unlikely that I would have fired. If I was "stuck" or otherwise unable to get out of the way...100% GTG to engage them. However, at the end of the day, my goal is to survive the day and taking a step or two out of the van's path is the BEST way to do so. EGO will tell you otherwise. Don't listen to EGO as it will get you hemmed up every time.

 

[BiscuitNaBasket]

If I was a disabled person or just not able to move out of the way then yes, absolutely. The driver is hell bent on GTFO and could probably care less about someone in the way.

 

[nsheepdog]

I say No.
Just be a good witness.

 

[g00n24]

Then, most likely, you would have been dead.

Considering your scenario implies that you are to be physically unable to move out of the way because of age or handicap, I would offer up the opinion that you would also be unable to initiate the draw stroke, draw, aim, and fire, in time either.

I bet a few people who are wheel chair bound and still carry would argue differently. And they would certainly been justified in using deadly force with a vehicle bearing down on them and no way to escape.

Another scenario here where I believe you would have been justified using deadly force is if you were with a spouse or loved one that was disabled. If you could not get them and yourself to safety fast enough to get out of the way, then your only recourse may be deadly force to stop the threat.

I'm sure a lawyer for the other side would argue that the driver was going to turn and not hit you, but if you believe your life to be in danger then you can't afford to play the "what if" game...

 

[92ThoStro]

Reminds me of the thread last month where the guy saw a shoplifter running out of a store. The criminal pushed someone then hopped in a car. The guy said the criminal tried to run him over so he shot and hit a bunch of other cars. I don't have the link, hard to navigate on a phone.
It didn't end well for him IIRC

I would have jumped away too, safer than shooting.

 

[Bunnykid68]

The other day I was walking into the Lowes hardware store. As I was walking across the the drive between the parking spots and the front of the store there was a van sitting there running. As I got into the middle of the drive a man came running out of the store and dove into the passenger side back of van yelling at the driver to GO GO GO MOTHER BLEEPER GO.

I knew what was going on right away. But I hadn't relized where I was standing. The driver started yelling at the guy that jumped in saying," he wasnt going to go to jail" but then punched the gas with me standing about 20 ft infront of the van. i was able to get out of the way but only because I took a couple giant steps to get out of the way.

Now with that story told. the way I am thinking is. i was able to take the giant steps to get out of the way but barely. So one could say sence I was able to get out of the way that drawing the firearm would have been a no no.

An argument could also been made that they were comitting a crime and running me over with a van in that crime makes the van a deadly weapon and drawing would have been an adequate responce.

And so you know i am still waiting on my permit and was not in possesion of a firearm. This has just been in my head every since it happened.
Did I feel my life was in danger yes until I got that last step out of the way. What if I wasnt able to take those steps. Say I was an elderly man with a permit to have a firearm and couldnt have taken those steps.



After talking to the lady at the counter I found out I was almost ran over so the guy could steal 2 cordless drills.

If he did not run over you and bruise your foot you have no legal action that you could take....

 

[CountryBoy19]

I would have popped a couple shots into the windows just to mark the van for easier identification...

 

[rgrimm01]

You know after the fact that he shoplifted. At the time, you did not know what the situation was. What if what you witnessed was a man in the throws of explosive diarrhea and the facilities inside were out of order.

Evade if possible and definitively if uncertain of the facts of the situation.