zoo carry

[red_zr24x4]

We took the grand baby to Pottawatomie zoo today. The first thing I did at the entrance was look for a no firearms sign, didn't see one.

Here's where it turns ify, there were a couple of school buses there for field trips. So is a public place used for a field trip considered "school property" while students are there?

I was CC'ing so no one knew,but me. We had an enjoyable day, but just a heads up a lot of the animals are not out till after memorial day.

The saddest/funnest part of the day was when we rode the zoo train and the engineer was telling "on the right is so and so well we got to the bear pen he said this is where the oldest bear in captivity in Indiana lived but sadly he died a few days ago... I mean come on it died why not just say nothing. then a few feet down the track he said on your right you'll see an ash tree..

Any input on the field trip deal would be appreciated. just so you know the grand baby is not a student, he's 2 years old.
Kenny

 

[redneckmedic]

This horse had been absolutely beat to death, but since you had a story to go with your question I won't hold it against you. Yes, I believe the agreed upon is this.

School function = No Gun.

I am sure it will be sited in a few posts.

 

[esrice]

Yes, school function = no gun, but the point of contention is "does it matter if you are a participant of that school function"?

Personally, I believe that you must be a participant in that function for it to be illegal. Just because you are at a venue that is also occupied by a school function should not mean that you can't carry there, since you have no part in the event.

Here is some helpful reading:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...nse/22704-indianapolis_children_s_museum.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ense/20764-carry_in_indianapolis_museums.html

 

[hookedonjeep]

Wouldn't the example only be true if the zoo were owned by the school? If it is a public place, not in any sort of ownership of a school corporation, then why would it suddenly become off limits? Does this mean then that if the school takes the kids on a field trip to a shooting range, that no one there can have a gun? Myself, I think that the law applies to school properties only - like a function at the school itself. I may be wrong - wouldn't be the first and damned sure won't be the last....

 

[esrice]

the school takes the kids on a field trip to a shooting range,

Boy THAT would be the day!

 

[CarmelHP]

Wouldn't the example only be true if the zoo were owned by the school? If it is a public place, not in any sort of ownership of a school corporation, then why would it suddenly become off limits? Does this mean then that if the school takes the kids on a field trip to a shooting range, that no one there can have a gun? Myself, I think that the law applies to school properties only - like a function at the school itself. I may be wrong - wouldn't be the first and damned sure won't be the last....

I don't read it that narrowly but I don't think it's as broad as the people claiming that if a school kids shows up anywhere near you it's now a "school function." It's meant to cover such things as proms which are using rented venues, etc. The only reasonable reading is a location used primarily for a school function such as if the zoo was rented by a school and others excluded.

 

[ntrngr]

I don't read it that narrowly but I don't think it's as broad as the people claiming that if a school kids shows up anywhere near you it's now a "school function." It's meant to cover such things as proms which are using rented venues, etc. The only reasonable reading is a location used primarily for a school function such as if the zoo was rented by a school and others excluded.

This one is close to me because I just went to the zoo wed with my son's class. I was considering driving. If I had, I would have been carrying.

Here is my rational:

So, you and your family go to the zoo. You show up and you go in. You are OC fashionable, your wife is purse CC.

Of course the zoo wants schools to call ahead, but, its not really required. Your class could just get there and pay to get in like other patrons. So, they do. You and your wife are suddenly felons.

However, if on the way, two blocks from the zoo, the bus breaks down and they never made it, you're still a law abiding citizen (though finger printed and cataloged like a criminal).

Carmel, isn't there some kind of basic law principal that says the law is constant and can't be yanked around like that?

Other Scenarios:

What if you have a place of business thats a bank from 8am to 11:59am but a post office from 12:00pm to 4pm. You come in right at the top of the clock, your deposit is held up because the teller is slow. Are you then legal at 11:59:59.9 then a felon at 12:00:00.0?

What if the place is a combination? Bank and Post Office at the same time? Can you carry if you're coming in to make a deposit but if you buy a book of stamps, you're suddenly a felon?

You know, the programmer side of my brain can just keep generating these not-completely-impossible scenarios. But you're all probably tired of it so I'll stop. I don't expect real answers but I would like everyone (and Carmel...) to think about it.

(Is that horse starting to smell yet?)

 

[Soundslikejosh]

The post office isn't illegal, no matter the time.

 

[Muddy_Ford]

The post office isn't illegal, no matter the time.

I would have to disagree.

The Post Office is a Federal Building (I think this still applies even if it is not a stand-alone building. But I am not a lawyer.) They have their signs posted too. I am pretty sure there is a code for this and I am sure someone will post it. (sorry not quite sure how to do it myself yet.)

 

[Serial Crusher]

This is also on it's way to the glue factory, but I'll run it past everyone again. My local post office has a sign prominently posted that says no carry federal property. I also know (have been told by postmaster several times) that the building is leased. I know that in the small town next to mine their post office is also leased. I believe this is the way it is in many small towns. This comes pretty close to the USPS making whatever they wish de facto federal property.

 

[CarmelHP]

If you lease a house, you have property rights in it during the term of the lease, though limited by the specific lease agreement. Same with the post office. There is also a federal reg concerning post offices that I've posted before. As I said, I don't believe you've suddenly committed a crime because a class showed up unannounced. You were not excluded, you had as much right as the school children to be there. However, in locations that are specifically leased or reserved for a school function, the school decides who is there, I think that is the only reasonable situation for it to apply.When a statute is this vaguely written, the least restrictive reasonable meaning should be applied.

 

[esrice]

This one is close to me because I just went to the zoo wed with my son's class. I was considering driving. If I had, I would have been carrying.

*my emphasis added*

The way I read it, regardless if you drove yourself or not, if you were PART of the school function, you could not carry there. Not because its the zoo, but because you are a participant of a school function.

 

[mikea46996]

The Michigan City zoo is NOT gun freindly found this out today.

It was cool when we left so I had on a light jacket. Was more or less CCing.

We were in the reptile house when the GF says tie your boot before you trip.

I bend over to tie my boot and the grip of my XD must have popped out from under my jacket.

We exit the reptile house and head over to the farm type animals. We were checking out the baby goats(cute) and one stuck its nose through the fence so I rubbed it's nose, then we headed towards the otters.

All of a sudden we have 4 zoo keepers 2 from in front and two from behind. (My GF is telling me I am an ******* and they are going to throw us out because i touched the goat) One of the zookeepers stops about 2 feet from us and says " I am sorry but we are going to have to ask you to leave.".

I start explaining how sorry I am and I couldn't help it, it was just so cute and so on. When he interupts me and says that is not the problem, that unless I am an offduty Police Officer I have to leave immediately. So I ask why. He says"Sir one of the zoo personnel spotted a firearm on your person." I explain to him yes I do have a firearm and also a LTCH. He tells me"I don't care there are no firearms permitted on zoo property and that they have called MC Police."

So we leave not wanting to cause a scene and I wait for the cop to show up outside the zoo near the enterance.

He shows up and identifies himself to me and asks if there was a problem.

"No sir officer, we were just walking around the zoo when we were approached by the zoo people and told we had to leave."

He asks me"Sir do you have a gun?"

"Yes officer I do and i also have LTCH if you need to see it"

He replies"No thats not needed I am sorry but even if you put your weapon in your car the zoo has stated that you are not welcome back today."

"No problem sir we won't be returning to this zoo ever again anyway."

He tells me " Thank you for being polite and not causeing a scene inside the zoo or with me, I understand your rights and agree with them but I don't control the zoo."

So today was a great day for LEO interaction and a horrible day at the zoo. We looked everywhere outside the zoo and never saw anything about a firearm policy but I just checked the web site and it says no firearms and LEO must identify themselves upon enterance.

 

[esrice]

Sorry for the bittersweet encounters Mike. I can hear "concealed means concealed" ringing in my head.

It sounds like everyone played by the rules. They don't want your gun there? Ok fine. No arrest necessary. You didn't tresspass after you were asked to leave, so you were in the clear. The cop understood his boundries and your rights. I'd say you did good!

 

[mikea46996]

Sorry for the bittersweet encounters Mike. I can hear "concealed means concealed" ringing in my head.

I am fat concealed means concealed till I bend my fat ass over and my jacket rides up.....

It sounds like everyone played by the rules. They don't want your gun there? Ok fine. No arrest necessary. You didn't tresspass after you were asked to leave, so you were in the clear. The cop understood his boundries and your rights. I'd say you did good!

All in all it was a good day...

 

[esrice]

Were you not wearing a shirt under your jacket? IWB holster?

(I totally understand the "do I want to breathe OR bend over?" mentality!)

 

[mikea46996]

Were you not wearing a shirt under your jacket? IWB holster?

(I totally understand the "do I want to breathe OR bend over?" mentality!)

T-shirt tucked in IWB in MOB position. Next time i will kneel to tie my boot.

 

[esrice]

Next time i will kneel to tie my boot.

Make your wife tie your shoe while you stand there like this. . .

 

[mikea46996]

Make your wife tie your shoe while you stand there like this. . .

I like that but reread my post GF LOL. Ain't no ring on this finger......... I don't wanna have to give anybody half my stuff when she decides....yep he is an ass my friends and family were right!!!!

 

[esrice]

Hahaha. . . .