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  1. #11
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBoxaJunk View Post
    A secular morality doesn't have to be any more complicated than a set of standards (you might even call them rules) by which people have agreed to live. I believe rule of law is an example of secular morality.

    Whenever I hear someone say "You can't legislate morality." I think to myself "Sure you can. What IS legislation, if not that morality which people have decided is fair and prudent to impose upon ourselves and each other?"

    If you are saying that laws made up by popular opinion are the foundation upon which to build a moral code, well... that doesn't seem very authoritative or backed up by reason. At best that seems more like a rough sketch of a system of ethics rather than morals. There are probably many things that most of us would consider immoral but are not criminal (and vice-versa!)

    The assertion was that an authoritative moral code can have its basis in human reason rather than the character of God. I'm not questioning that a set of standards can be developed by men, but I'm curious as to the foundational reasoning upon which those standards are built. Maybe, the basic question is more about how one determines good vs. evil without looking to something superior to mankind. Even one example would be interesting to consider.

    I guess I'm asking for a statement that starts out, "Lying is right/wrong because... (insert rational basis for (dis)honesty here)", or something like that.
    "A fool delights in airing his opinions" -- Solomon

  2. #12
    Grandmaster BigBoxaJunk's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kart29 View Post
    At best that seems more like a rough sketch of a system of ethics rather than morals.
    The way I see it, it's only a rough sketch if the people who "draw it up" don't apply their full efforts at defining principals. Even with religious-based morals, don't people have to have much discussion about which things are serious and which aren't? After all, you can receive a death penalty for violation of one of the ten commandments, but violating others wouldn't be illegal at all. So, it's not like biblical morals are all held to at face value (at least not for most of society). The same discussion and decision-making that allowed that could also be held on a purely secular level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kart29 View Post
    I guess I'm asking for a statement that starts out, "Lying is right/wrong because... (insert rational basis for (dis)honesty here)", or something like that.
    So, I guess what I'm saying is "Lying (for example) is wrong because.........we've all talked about it and have decided to formally decree that it is so."
    No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up.

  3. #13
    Grandmaster IndyDave1776's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by GPIA7R View Post
    In that case, they better get busy on demanding the removal of the institution of the Supreme Court, or did they fail to notice that it is entrenched in such belief right down to the decoration on the building?
    Government and pedophiles both practice buggering those powerless to defend themselves.

  4. #14
    INGO Homebrewer JettaKnight's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyDave1776 View Post
    In that case, they better get busy on demanding the removal of the institution of the Supreme Court, or did they fail to notice that it is entrenched in such belief right down to the decoration on the building?
    That's just for show. You're not actually suppose to believe that and live life accordingly. As for the history - we can just revise that to exclude that messy God stuff.

  5. #15
    The BOFH GPIA7R's Avatar

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    We are Homo Ludens. We are those who play.

  6. #16
    INGO Homebrewer JettaKnight's Avatar

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  7. #17
    Grandmaster IndyDave1776's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by JettaKnight View Post
    It would be difficulty to improve on this response. Why? Why in the universe would the Vatican do this?
    Government and pedophiles both practice buggering those powerless to defend themselves.

  8. #18
    INGO Homebrewer JettaKnight's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyDave1776 View Post
    It would be difficulty to improve on this response. Why? Why in the universe would the Vatican do this?
    I'm going to keep my mouth shut.

  9. #19
    The BOFH GPIA7R's Avatar

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    We are Homo Ludens. We are those who play.

  10. #20
    Grandmaster T.Lex's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by GPIA7R View Post
    This is a paradox.

    Under the various RFRA incarnations, the company can refuse to deal with what it believes are heretics.

    Yet, under RFRA and anti-discrimination laws, players are allowed to practice their religious beliefs without fear of reprisal.
    Resident Warning Shot Statist.

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