CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[ArcadiaGP]

Pope Francis to allow priests to forgive women who had abortions

 

[T.Lex]

Honestly, I hadn't even realized that was an issue.

 

[lovemachine]

Pope Francis to allow priests to forgive women who had abortions

I'm all for this. If they are truly sorry, then they SHOULD be forgiven. Going thru Confession is a wonderful thing. It's an even more wonderful feeling to BE forgiven as well.

 

[PistolBob]

Priests in the US have been able to do this for years, this order from Pope Francis will allow the absolution to be done all over the world. It's a good thing. He's also cutting the Society of St Pius the 10th some major mercy as well...I hope that will continue any healing process that is going on.

 

[foszoe]

Honestly, I hadn't even realized that was an issue.

I don't think it was...

 

[steveh_131]

Remarking that he has met with many women who have faced this decision, Francis said that women "who bear in their heart the scar of this agonizing and painful decision" deserve the forgiveness of God if they seek it.

They deserve forgiveness?

I don't know which is more disturbing. That this man thinks that certain people deserve forgiveness, or that he thinks it is up to him to decide.

ETA: After reading it again, it's possible that Politico was paraphrasing when they used the word 'deserves'. So I'm not certain if the pope actually said that or if Politico was poorly interpreting his words.

I do still maintain that it is ridiculous that he thinks it is up to him to decide whose sins are covered by Christ's sacrifice.

 

[steveh_131]

1 Peter 5:10 But God shows undeserved kindness to everyone. That’s why he appointed Christ Jesus to choose you to share in his eternal glory. You will suffer for a while, but God will make you complete, steady, strong, and firm.

Acts 15:11 We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.

Romans 11:6 And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is – free and undeserved.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

I'm all for this. If they are truly sorry, then they SHOULD be forgiven. Going thru Confession is a wonderful thing. It's an even more wonderful feeling to BE forgiven as well.

Hasn't thought of this... are people acknowledging that abortion is a bad, a sin, an evil thing now? Hmmmm.

 

[steveh_131]

Hasn't thought of this... are people acknowledging that abortion is a bad, a sin, an evil thing now? Hmmmm.

Many Catholics even oppose contraception.

 

[lovemachine]

Hasn't thought of this... are people acknowledging that abortion is a bad, a sin, an evil thing now? Hmmmm.

You mean it isn't?

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Many Catholics even oppose contraception.

You mean it isn't?

I mean... the "left" is praising the Pope's decision here. That sounds like they're acknowledging abortion was a bad thing worthy of confessing to. /shrug

 

[lovemachine]

I mean... the "left" is praising the Pope's decision here. That sounds like they're acknowledging abortion was a bad thing worthy of confessing to. /shrug

I never thought of it that way.

 

[steveh_131]

I mean... the "left" is praising the Pope's decision here. That sounds like they're acknowledging abortion was a bad thing worthy of confessing to. /shrug

Well the decision is 'progressive' in their eyes, even if it doesn't quite get them to final destination, which would be the church's endorsement of abortion. They love this pope. He's so flexible on Biblical doctrines.

 

[T.Lex]

Well the decision is 'progressive' in their eyes, even if it doesn't quite get them to final destination, which would be the church's endorsement of abortion. They love this pope. He's so flexible on Biblical doctrines.

But here's the irony - he didn't really say anything new. As I think you were alluding to, those women already "deserved" foregiveness regardless whether he said anything about it.

Yet, the left, so eager to portray this pope as "one of them" sees this as some movement on his part or on the part of the church. It is confirmation bias, IMHO, for them.

I will grant that Pope Francis' probably shares the left's views on the role of government, but that really a different issue. This is a dogmatic issue in which he confirmed something that already existed.

If he had said, "Poverty sucks." then some probably would've seen that as proof that he is a socialist. The reality is (IMHO) that he's speaking on a different level, and people are grafting their own agendas onto him. Truly, same goes for some on the right.

 

[steveh_131]

But here's the irony - he didn't really say anything new.

Well... it is sorta new, isn't it? Allows someone with an abortion in their past to be reinstated in the church?

 

[rambone]

Originally posted by Pope Francis

The forgiveness of God cannot be denied to one who has repented, especially when that person approaches the Sacrament of Confession with a sincere heart in order to obtain reconciliation with the Father. For this reason too, I have decided, notwithstanding anything to the contrary, to concede to all priests for the Jubilee Year the discretion to absolve of the sin of abortion those who have procured it and who, with contrite heart, seek forgiveness for it.

1. Where in the bible does the Catholic priesthood assume a monopoly on granting (and denying!) absolution of sins? The idea that priests can dole out forgiveness, based on which sin was committed and based on their "discretion" over the penitent's "contriteness" of heart, is problematic to say the least. Some say it is a usurpation of God's role as judge and redeemer.

“Who can forgive sins but God alone?” -- Mark 2:7

2. His "Holy Year of Jubilee" was proclaimed earlier to be Dec. 8th, 2015 - Nov. 20th, 2016. Did the pope really just announce a limited time offer on absolution? Is the deal redeemable with any other offers?

 

[T.Lex]

Well... it is sorta new, isn't it? Allows someone with an abortion in their past to be reinstated in the church?

From:
Pope: All priests can forgive those who've had abortions - CNN.com

(Yes, I cringe a little at linking to CNN. Apologies.)

I believe this was an issue in the non-USian church.

In the United States, many priests already have that power, but Vatican officials portrayed Tuesday's announcement as "a widening of the church's mercy." "What's new is that Pope Francis, at least for the Year of Mercy, is universalizing this permission," said the Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest and editor-at-large at America magazine in New York.
...
The Pope's policy does not change church doctrine and applies only to the Year of Mercy, a centuries-old Catholic practice during which believers may receive special indulgences for their sins. The mercy year begins on December 8 and runs through November 20, 2016. Vatican officials said it is possible the pontiff will allow the abortion policy to continue in perpetuity.

So, here's the basic rule (still from CNN):

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that person who procures an abortion incurs automatic excommunication, a penalty that often only a bishop can lift. Some experts in the Catholic canon law expressed confusion about the practical effects of the Pope's announcement.
...
. Edward Peters, a canon lawyer at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit, said Francis' statement seems to assume that the "sin" of abortion and the "crime" of abortion are treated equally under church law.
But Peters said priests have been empowered to forgive the sin, which most often applies to women who have an abortion, since 1983, when the code of canon law was revised.
It's the canonical crime of abortion, which Peters said more aptly applies to abortion providers, that would incur automatic excommunication and require a bishop's intervention.
In an explanatory article, a consultant to the Vatican Press Office agreed that, under current church law "in many cases" an abortion "may be absolved as would any other serious sin."

That's actually a decent CNN article.

I think the problem is that in some places, very conservative bishops decided that individual priests should not have the autonomy to absolve a woman's sin from obtaining an abortion. Pope Francis has now short-circuited that and taken the bishops individual opinions out of the mix. At least for a year.

 

[PistolBob]

Well... it is sorta new, isn't it? Allows someone with an abortion in their past to be reinstated in the church?

That's not new. It's been that way here for a very long time. Each Archdiocese and Diocese is headed up by a Bishop. The Bishops are the ones that grant the ability to local priests to participate fully in the sacrament of reconciliation. (confession and absolution of confessed sins).

The Pope has declared that all priests, all over the world will be able to absolve the sin of abortion in women who are seeking it and have shown contrition during this time period...which could very well extend to forever. He has also declared that Catholics who seek reconciliation from priests in the Society of St Pius X, will receive a valid sacrament during this time period in an attempt to bridge the schism that exists between the SSPX and Rome. It's all a great thing.

dominus

 

[steveh_131]

So... it hasn't been that way in some areas, and he's making it that way now. That is new. I don't get what we're arguing about.

Anyone have a good explanation for Rambone's questions?

 

[T.Lex]

Anyone have a good explanation for Rambone's questions?

Yes.

Would it make any difference?