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Thread: Just What Is It That DJ Trump That Inflames Passions? Who Is Against Him? Why?

  1. #21
    Grandmaster jamil's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by SarahG View Post
    I think this is a little off base for some people. While there are fringe people who likely identify as pure socialists, you'll more likely find democratic socialists who want more government intervention, higher tax rates, and expansion of social programs. While I don't want these things now, there was a time when I 100% did want these things. People are often sold the idea, especially in higher education, that the only way to care for and help people is to increase social programs, increase taxes, and allow the government to "take care" of its people. I believe that most people who say they want socialism just want to help people who they consider to be less fortunate, but the way they want to achieve that is not in line with freedom and liberty. I'm sure there are some that will never change their minds. That said, I really believe showing people the benefits of capitalism for working class people is the best way to go about getting rid of widespread support for socialist policies.
    This exactly explains some relatives. Theyíre not socialists, per se. They are collectivist minded though. And they want all the big government stuff, like the $15 minimum wage, healthcare for all, ban guns, enforce social norms, etcetera. None of that is socialism. They have an abundance of regard for things like caring and fairness for the underdog. And I think that drives their thinking on preferred policies. But they have no or little regard for fairness reciprocity (reap what you sow, earn your own way). And I think thatís a big reason why they donít understand conservatives. They donít see those things as moral priorities.
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  2. #22
    Soon... Sigblaster's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamil View Post
    This exactly explains some relatives. Theyíre not socialists, per se. They are collectivist minded though. And they want all the big government stuff, like the $15 minimum wage, healthcare for all, ban guns, enforce social norms, etcetera. None of that is socialism. They have an abundance of regard for things like caring and fairness for the underdog. And I think that drives their thinking on preferred policies. But they have no or little regard for fairness reciprocity (reap what you sow, earn your own way). And I think thatís a big reason why they donít understand conservatives. They donít see those things as moral priorities.
    All of that is socialism or communism. All of it.

  3. #23
    Grandmaster Tombs's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigblaster View Post
    All of that is socialism or communism. All of it.
    Hate to break it to you, but there is such a thing as being more left economically, and extremely far right, pro gun, pro tradition.

    I happen to drop in that spot.

    I just happen to think legal entities that are absent all the liability and responsibilities of an individual, shouldn't be treated the same as an individual.
    Do not interrupt your enemy while they are making a mistake.

  4. #24
    Grandmaster jamil's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigblaster View Post
    All of that is socialism or communism. All of it.
    No. It overlaps, sure. Take healthcare for all, for example. The healthcare proposed isnít government ownership of the means of production. Their proposal is medicare for all. Medicare is a public funded sort of insurance program which pays private providers on behalf of the patient, according to the patientís needs. If that were true ďsocialismĒ, all of the medical facilities would be owned by the government. And all of the providers would be employed directly by the government. The VA hospital system is closer to socialism than Medicare.

    Minimum wage isnít socialism. Itís a law that forces employers to pay a minimum wage. There are still privately owned businesses. You could say that itís authoritarian. But itís not socialism.

    Gun bans arenít socialist either. Whether government allows the people to have guns or not has nothing to do with public ownership of the means of production. Itís authoritarian too. But itís not socialism.

    All those things have some overlap with typical socialist regimes. But theyíre not themselves ďsocialismĒ
    I have spoken.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tombs View Post
    Hate to break it to you, but there is such a thing as being more left economically, and extremely far right, pro gun, pro tradition.

    I happen to drop in that spot.

    I just happen to think legal entities that are absent all the liability and responsibilities of an individual, shouldn't be treated the same as an individual.
    I have no problem with people believing that, as everyone is free to believe what they do. Just be honest about those beliefs. When it's unwarranted government interference in the free market, it's either socialism or communism. The only difference is in the degree.

  6. #26
    Grandmaster jamil's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigblaster View Post
    I have no problem with people believing that, as everyone is free to believe what they do. Just be honest about those beliefs. When it's unwarranted government interference in the free market, it's either socialism or communism. The only difference is in the degree.
    Words have meaning. Itís pretty well documented what socialism is and what communism is. You could say the policies are ďLeftĒ. And even that they borrow some things from socialism/communism. That doesn't make them socialism or communism. None of that was the point of the thread, or the point of my post. But whatever. INGO is as INGO does.
    I have spoken.
    If youíre woke you dig it.
    **** Biden!

  7. #27
    Grandmaster foszoe's Avatar

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    I don't have a problem with many or some socialist ideals or principles. One can make the argument for Christian Socialists. I just don't want government enforced, dictated, or sanctioned socialism.
    Orthodox Christian | Absolutist | NRA | GOA | MGNOC |ARRL | Purdue Alum

  8. #28
    Grandmaster Tombs's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigblaster View Post
    I have no problem with people believing that, as everyone is free to believe what they do. Just be honest about those beliefs. When it's unwarranted government interference in the free market, it's either socialism or communism. The only difference is in the degree.
    That's not how it works.
    Communism is kind of an untenable thing that really requires anarchy that is also organized, to fit the mold.
    Socialism is where the means of production isn't privately owned. It can be state owned, or collectively owned, though the latter really isn't something that exists except in fairy tales.

    Words like this shouldn't be used as some sort of ad hominem. They have a meaning, and since we speak the same language, we should be able to agree on a source for that meaning.

    Either way, there's miles of room between capitalism and socialism to fall. I don't see a significant difference between a 100% free market with no regulation, and 1984. It's just being controlled from another direction. You can achieve a state of greater freedom with some degree of regulation to keep corporations from becoming the new state. You're getting a nice glimpse of this with facebook, twitter, and google. This is what happens when you neglect to protect the people's freedoms from corporations that feel they have become the new gods.
    Do not interrupt your enemy while they are making a mistake.

  9. #29
    Soon... Sigblaster's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamil View Post
    No. It overlaps, sure. Take healthcare for all, for example. The healthcare proposed isnít government ownership of the means of production. Their proposal is medicare for all. Medicare is a public funded sort of insurance program which pays private providers on behalf of the patient, according to the patientís needs. If that were true ďsocialismĒ, all of the medical facilities would be owned by the government. And all of the providers would be employed directly by the government. The VA hospital system is closer to socialism than Medicare.

    Minimum wage isnít socialism. Itís a law that forces employers to pay a minimum wage. There are still privately owned businesses. You could say that itís authoritarian. But itís not socialism.

    Gun bans arenít socialist either. Whether government allows the people to have guns or not has nothing to do with public ownership of the means of production. Itís authoritarian too. But itís not socialism.

    All those things have some overlap with typical socialist regimes. But theyíre not themselves ďsocialismĒ
    Wow, this is a lot to try to respond to when you believe that communist/socialist ideals aren't actually communist/socialist ideals.

    Everyone in a free society should have access to healthcare. That doesn't mean that they should actually receive health care. People should be free to contract with insurers, wherever they may be located in these United States, to provide services at rates they are willing to contract for. Do you see the difference? If they can't afford the health care they need, well that's a different issue from whether or not the health care is available to them. This notion that health care should be tied to an employer, or to the government, fails the test of what should occur in a truly free society. To the contrary, government interference in the health care and health insurance industry has created the problems we face right now.

    And minimum wage, if not total control of industry, is overt control over industry. Shouldn't skills versus demand for those skills set the rate? That's capitalism. Don't posit the "living wage" concept, because that is just more socialist/communist propaganda. People should be paid for the value they provide. Nothing more, nothing less, and that should be a negotiation between the employer and the employee, and no one else.

    Your last point, "Gun bans aren't socialist either", is either laughable or tragic. The best way to begin the transition to a socialist/communist rule is to disarm the people. There is no other valid reason to do so in a free society. A government cannot exert control over a populace that has the means to resist them physically. It's rule number one in any authoritarian takeover, and it's always done under the guise of providing "safety" and "security" to the people, when really it provides safety and security to the oppressive regime. I'm actually saddened that I have to explain this to someone on a Second Amendment centric forum, when so many historical and recent examples are extant.

  10. #30
    Soon... Sigblaster's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tombs View Post
    Communism is kind of an untenable thing that really requires anarchy that is also organized, to fit the mold.
    Socialism is where the means of production isn't privately owned. It can be state owned, or collectively owned, though the latter really isn't something that exists except in fairy tales.

    Words like this shouldn't be used as some sort of ad hominem. They have a meaning, and since we speak the same language, we should be able to agree on a source for that meaning.

    Either way, there's miles of room between capitalism and socialism to fall. I don't see a significant difference between a 100% free market with no regulation, and 1984. It's just being controlled from another direction. You can achieve a state of greater freedom with some degree of regulation to keep corporations from becoming the new state. You're getting a nice glimpse of this with facebook, twitter, and google. This is what happens when you neglect to protect the people's freedoms from corporations that feel they have become the new gods.


    It's curious that you said my opinions were "ad hominem", when I didn't personally attack the poster, but only their concepts. That is actually the opposite of "ad hominem".

    I never said there should be NO government regulation. Of course I want to know that when I go to the supermarket to buy beef, I'm actually buying beef and not horsemeat. When I go to the pharmacy, I want to know that the drugs I'm paying for are the drugs that I actually receive. I also want to know that the pharmacist is being paid for his or her skillset, and not handing me the wrong pills in the right bottle, because he or she is interchangeable with someone who is being paid a government-mandated wage.

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