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  1. #51

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    The difference in the amount of hold over you need to use between a 25 and a 50 yard zero at very close ranges is really not very much. At and inside of 10 yards, the difference will be maximally 1/2". At 10-20 yards it will be somewhere between 1/2 - 1 inch. Of course, at 25 yards you will be dead on with the 25 yard zero and half to hold over about an inch and a quarter with the 50 yard zero.

    I guess I could see those differences making the 25 yard zero worthwhile if you knew that particular weapon was never going to need to be used at ranges much beyond 40 yards or so.

    The downside of the 25 yard zero is the amount of hold under you need to use at ranges beyond 45 yards or so. At 50 yards, your 25 yard zero POI is going to be over 2" above POA, at 55 yards it will be over 2 1/2" high, and by 60 yards it will already be over 3" high. Those ranges will require sight picture adjustments that are as great or greater than that cause by your sight over bore offset at point blank range.

    I'm not arguing against the 25 yard zero. For some scenarios I think it makes good sense. But I prefer the 50 yard zero if there is any chance you are going to have to use the rifle at even moderate range.

  2. #52
    Master Jackson's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by bwframe View Post
    Seems like a lot of electronics to depend on to stay working and zero'ed through thick and thin.

    How often do you verify working and zero'ed?

    Why wouldn't you just verify and train to use a 2" offset inside and at inside distance? Hostage shot is top of attacker's head to middle forehead?

    Outside distances hold dead on?
    This has always kinda been my method.

  3. #53
    Master Jackson's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhino View Post
    This needs repeating several times during these conversations.
    It is there with pistols too. The distance where you notice is much shorter, and the offset much smaller, but it still happens. I see the difference between 3 and 5-6 yds with a pistol.

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    This has always kinda been my method.

    If you can develop a good sense of what a target at 20 and 40 yards looks like, and what a 2" and a 1" holdover look like on the target, with most ammunition and typical AR sights and optics, with a 50 yard zero if you use a 2" holdover for distances within 20 yards, 1" holdover for targets from 20 to 40 yards, and hold dead on for targets beyond 40 yards, you are going to hit within about 1/2" of your POA all the way out to just beyond 60 yards. That's pretty close.

  5. #55
    Grandmaster BehindBlueI's's Avatar

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    It sounds like it has potential, but if it's not been stress-tested we are just guessing. My concern is, under stress, can you focus on the "nothing" between the dots instead of your eye going to one dot or the other?

    I think holdover remains an issue even among well-trained and stress-inoculated shooters because it is the rarity and is not where subconscious performance is used to going. When a split second "shoot" decision pops up, you do what you "always" do and center the dot and pull the trigger. Longer ranges with more reaction time and less sense of startle are easier to compensate for. You have more conscious input. Attempts to compare longer range shooting and extreme close quarters are an apples to oranges conversation. It's different mentally even if the fundamental skills are mostly the same. If it were same-same, the military wouldn't have special schools dedicated to it. Standard rifle training would be sufficient. Having been through the Army's MOUT (Mission Oriented Urban Training, what at the time covered house-to-house style urban fighting) and various LE oriented training I'm pretty comfortable saying they are different things.

    One of the advantages of that training is the realization it's difficult to train for, especially without organizational support. You can't surprise yourself. I can practice known and unknown distance shooting all day long, I can't recreate startle and subconscious response alone. It is much more difficult to train to subconscious levels then 50-300y shooting is. I need FoF, a realistic simulator, etc. So, yes, it's a "hardware solution to a software problem". It's a very common and difficult to remedy software problem, though. More so than many here seem to realize, and I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest it's likely none of them have shot someone actively trying to kill them or their buddies from double-arms length with an AR and properly utilized holdover.

    To further muddy the waters, holdover may be sideways. In an urban environment you may not have the luxury of holding the rifle oriented "correctly" and utilizing available cover. I find left/right holdover to be even less intuitive than up/down holdover, especially on a moving target. And, of course, this is even harder for most folks to train for because few have access to ranges that will let them shoot from unorthodox shooting positions, set up barricades, etc.

    My preference is a reticle that allows a dot to be at either POI and a readily apparent means to differentiate them. I find it to be significantly more intuitive and require less conscious processing power than hold over.

    In short, I'm interested but not onboard until I can see it pressure tested in either realistic pain-feedback allowed FoF or real world shootings.

    L'otters are not afraid.

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