Remember years ago when we discussed the need for holdover at close ranges during my rifle class? That would be right after the safety briefing on the range! It's that important and it bites people who are experienced shooters over and over when they are under stress. Do you still have that behemoth AR with the loooooong heavt barrel?
-
Be sure to read this post! Beware of scammers. https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/classifieds-new-online-payment-guidelines-rules-paypal-venmo-zelle-etc.511734/
A solution to hold over?
- Thread starter cosermann
- Start date
The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana
Member Benefits:
Fewer Ads! Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership Discuss anti-gun legislation Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses Discover free outdoor shooting areas View up to date on firearm-related events Share photos & video with other members ...and so much more!
Member Benefits:
Remember years ago when we discussed the need for holdover at close ranges during my rifle class? That would be right after the safety briefing on the range! It's that important and it bites people who are experienced shooters over and over when they are under stress. Do you still have that behemoth AR with the loooooong heavt barrel?
It doesn't matter at what distance you zero your optic or iron sights. The need for holdover at close distances is due to the physical offset between the bore line and the line of sight on an AR.
I've got a good idea of trajectory. I just find it entertaining that we are still looking for the one magic rangefinder, scope ,laser, dot, Swiss Army knife, auto reticle, system to take the place of holdover.
Until then being a Rifleman will have to do.
I've got a good idea of trajectory. I just find it entertaining that we are still looking for the one magic rangefinder, scope ,laser, dot, Swiss Army knife, auto reticle, system to take the place of holdover.
Until then being a Rifleman will have to do.
I have no doubt that individuals often forget to hold over to accommodate for the sight line over bore offset at close range under stress, or even get momentarily confused and hold under instead of holding over.
The idea of using an RDS above the bore axis and a laser below it, or using two lasers mounted on either side of the bore axis. or using the lower portion of the circle on an RDS with a dot - circle reticle all sound like ingenious solutions. But here is the thing, you still have to remember to do it. So under stress will you remember to split the laser dots, or the laser dot and the RDS dot, or use the circle on the dot -circle reticle? Or will you just default to using the dot on the RDS?
As for the RDS above, laser below, I would have to actually try this in practice before I could judge whether it had real merit. I could see how it might in that bad guy - hostage at close range scenario where you had to line up a very precise shot on the small portion of the bad guy's head poking out over the hostage. In the quick COM shot at close range I am doubtful whether it would be advantageous. You would need to acquire two dots, instead of one, then guesstimate the half-way point between them. If you can remember to do all that, I suspect you could remember to hold over. I am not sure that system would be more intuitive or quicker than just holding 1 1/2 - 2" high at close range.
The idea of using an RDS above the bore axis and a laser below it, or using two lasers mounted on either side of the bore axis. or using the lower portion of the circle on an RDS with a dot - circle reticle all sound like ingenious solutions. But here is the thing, you still have to remember to do it. So under stress will you remember to split the laser dots, or the laser dot and the RDS dot, or use the circle on the dot -circle reticle? Or will you just default to using the dot on the RDS?
As for the RDS above, laser below, I would have to actually try this in practice before I could judge whether it had real merit. I could see how it might in that bad guy - hostage at close range scenario where you had to line up a very precise shot on the small portion of the bad guy's head poking out over the hostage. In the quick COM shot at close range I am doubtful whether it would be advantageous. You would need to acquire two dots, instead of one, then guesstimate the half-way point between them. If you can remember to do all that, I suspect you could remember to hold over. I am not sure that system would be more intuitive or quicker than just holding 1 1/2 - 2" high at close range.
Whichever way someone chooses to solve the problem, that's going to boil down to practice. I agree that without practice using it, the tech solutions won't have much advantage over deliberately holding over with a conventional sighting system. If I forget to hold over or to use the lower hash mark on my reticle or I don't look at the alternative and actually use it to confirm alignment of the gun, then that's on me.
The issue is often not understood well by many people the terms are Point Of Aim vs Point Of Impact. I assumed this stuff was well known until I retired, the military employed RDS well before the civilian world and most civilian classes do not have a boring power point portion.
The AR has high set sights in relation to the bore center which causes a “offset” as you INGO peoples know.
My questions are what’s your zero 25,36,50,100? What range did you confirm Zero?
example a 25 meter/yard zero with a M68/ aimpoint Pro the POA and POI is not the same point so a shooter first must make sure that you are using the right target to account for the offset to obtain a proper zero for you RDS.
Confirm Zero at whatever distance you choose at that distance 25,36,50,100 understand the POA and POI for whatever distance you choose. This information needs to be fed into the ballistic computer between your ears. So you understand what hold over under you need at what range.
Then move to CQB range from 3, 7, 10, 25 yards backwards shoot your Carbine and look at the target this will give you feedback of your personal POA/POI. This is uploaded to the grey thing in your head if you are shooting too fast you will miss your brain has to compute distance fast in a CQB situation a dude on INGO posted something about “throttle control” the other day which means move fast but shoot as fast as you can hit.
The addition of a green laser seems ok if you remember to use it or have the time this concept is no different than using a PEQ 15 that has proven to be awesome at night. I prefer the EOtech for 100m or less at close range use the 65MOA ring easy and fast.
Here is you tax money at work it covers many great topics and is full of “Science” the INGO big brain crowd will love it!
https://www.arl.army.mil/arlreports/2018/ARL-TR-8594.pdf
The AR has high set sights in relation to the bore center which causes a “offset” as you INGO peoples know.
My questions are what’s your zero 25,36,50,100? What range did you confirm Zero?
example a 25 meter/yard zero with a M68/ aimpoint Pro the POA and POI is not the same point so a shooter first must make sure that you are using the right target to account for the offset to obtain a proper zero for you RDS.
Confirm Zero at whatever distance you choose at that distance 25,36,50,100 understand the POA and POI for whatever distance you choose. This information needs to be fed into the ballistic computer between your ears. So you understand what hold over under you need at what range.
Then move to CQB range from 3, 7, 10, 25 yards backwards shoot your Carbine and look at the target this will give you feedback of your personal POA/POI. This is uploaded to the grey thing in your head if you are shooting too fast you will miss your brain has to compute distance fast in a CQB situation a dude on INGO posted something about “throttle control” the other day which means move fast but shoot as fast as you can hit.
The addition of a green laser seems ok if you remember to use it or have the time this concept is no different than using a PEQ 15 that has proven to be awesome at night. I prefer the EOtech for 100m or less at close range use the 65MOA ring easy and fast.
Here is you tax money at work it covers many great topics and is full of “Science” the INGO big brain crowd will love it!
https://www.arl.army.mil/arlreports/2018/ARL-TR-8594.pdf
Lots of insight in this thread so far. I will not disagree that sight-line/ bore-line is an issue, but at what level of an issue. If we are talking under stress, then would we want to physically have to turn something else on (laser)? Also, in a high stress shooting environment is the 2.7 inches (max) of offset going to throw your shots more than your adrenaline and being in a rush will?
If the goal is shooting bullseyes at 5 yards then I can see the difference, but if we are shooting bad guys is less than three inches from point of aim to point of impact worth discussing when adrenaline is our bigger enemy?
If the goal is shooting bullseyes at 5 yards then I can see the difference, but if we are shooting bad guys is less than three inches from point of aim to point of impact worth discussing when adrenaline is our bigger enemy?
For iron sights I zero at either 25 meters or 36 yards because that is what the Army or USMC does. I don't shoot that well with iron sights with my eyes anymore and would only use them as a back up in a self defense scenario. In that case, I'm not going to be shooting at any distance so the exact choice of zero distance is not going to have much effect.
For unmagnified red dot sights or prism scopes, I use a 50 yard zero. I know my far zero is going to be somewhere in the vicinity of 225 yards or so, and that's about as far as I am going to shoot without magnification. I know that at contact distances to 5 yards my POI will be about 2 1/2 inches below my POA give or take a quarter inch or so. At ranges that close I am not even sure if I would be acquiring a sight picture. I'll hit about 1 3/4 - a little over 2" below POA at 7-15 yards and at 15-30 yards about 1 - 1 3/4" low. From 30 to 50 yards I doubt I would be able to estimate range with any exactitude, and I will hit within 1" of my zero which is close enough for government work. So a 2.5" holdover inside of 5 yards, 2" holdover at 5-15 yards, and 1.5" holdover at 15-35yds would put my POI within an inch of my POA and will probably be about as good as I can do given my limited ability to estimate range precisely and estimate what 1 1/2 or 2 1/2" on my target looks like.
In answer to the question, "at what range do I confirm my zero" for a 50 yard zero the answer is 50 yards. I might shoot out at 100 or 150 yards just to see what the rise is with my 50 yard zero, but I am unlikely to be using my unmagnified optic to shoot at those distances defensively.
For a rifle scope or a low powered, variable magnification optic, I still zero at 50 yards, but will check my POI at 100, 200, 300 yards if possible. I don't plan to be using a rifle scope without a true 1X low power defensively and in that case I prefer a 100 yard zero. I know that the estimated come-ups are going to vary a bit with barrel length, muzzle velocity, projectile mass and type, and how my rifle shoots. My height above bore axis is also about an eighth inch higher for my red dots than for my iron sights, and about an eighth inch higher still for my scopes and those things will have an effect. But the differences are not going to be that great inside of 50 yards, and my error estimating the range or the inches of hold over on the target is probably going to have a much greater effect than those variables.
For unmagnified red dot sights or prism scopes, I use a 50 yard zero. I know my far zero is going to be somewhere in the vicinity of 225 yards or so, and that's about as far as I am going to shoot without magnification. I know that at contact distances to 5 yards my POI will be about 2 1/2 inches below my POA give or take a quarter inch or so. At ranges that close I am not even sure if I would be acquiring a sight picture. I'll hit about 1 3/4 - a little over 2" below POA at 7-15 yards and at 15-30 yards about 1 - 1 3/4" low. From 30 to 50 yards I doubt I would be able to estimate range with any exactitude, and I will hit within 1" of my zero which is close enough for government work. So a 2.5" holdover inside of 5 yards, 2" holdover at 5-15 yards, and 1.5" holdover at 15-35yds would put my POI within an inch of my POA and will probably be about as good as I can do given my limited ability to estimate range precisely and estimate what 1 1/2 or 2 1/2" on my target looks like.
In answer to the question, "at what range do I confirm my zero" for a 50 yard zero the answer is 50 yards. I might shoot out at 100 or 150 yards just to see what the rise is with my 50 yard zero, but I am unlikely to be using my unmagnified optic to shoot at those distances defensively.
For a rifle scope or a low powered, variable magnification optic, I still zero at 50 yards, but will check my POI at 100, 200, 300 yards if possible. I don't plan to be using a rifle scope without a true 1X low power defensively and in that case I prefer a 100 yard zero. I know that the estimated come-ups are going to vary a bit with barrel length, muzzle velocity, projectile mass and type, and how my rifle shoots. My height above bore axis is also about an eighth inch higher for my red dots than for my iron sights, and about an eighth inch higher still for my scopes and those things will have an effect. But the differences are not going to be that great inside of 50 yards, and my error estimating the range or the inches of hold over on the target is probably going to have a much greater effect than those variables.
Last edited:
That sounds like a good argument for regulating your iron sights to zero at the same distances as your optics (in your case, 50 yards for your near zero and about 200 m for your far zero). I don't see a good reason to have the two different if one is a backup to the other.
If you were shooting 3-gun or otherwise using offset iron sights for close range and a magnified optic for longer ranges, then it would make sense to have different zeros.
So what happens at target distances BEYOND 50 YARDS?
The two laser beams REVERSE their relationship (green dot on top, red on bottom). You might naively say just aim between the two dots beyond 50 yards as well. Problem is that the round might still be going up relative to the "point of aim" or it might be going down (depends on your zero and the target distance). The easy answer is that this is for your "CQB" rifle and that you won't be shooting beyond 100 yards or so. Are you sure? You can't envision even one scenario where you might want to take a shot at say 200 yards with your "CQB" rifle?
I'm going to have to do some calculations to figure out how this setup might work out to 200 yards or so. My initial inclination is that it is likely to be confusing.
You are probably correct.
I have rear sights with crude ballistic drop compensation built into them for shooting at longer ranges, a Knights Armament on one carbine and a MaTech on the other. So I zeroed them per directions so that the BDC would be more or less on if I ever wanted or needed to use them at longer ranges.
Having said that, I have not shot with either set of irons beyond 100 yards, and very likely won't, so it would probably make sense to set them to the same zero as my short distance optics. But given that it is already unlikely that I will need to use an AR for self defense, it is even more unlikely that my optic will fail doing so. The carbine that I do have set up for potential defensive purposes wears a Vortex Spitfire 1X prism scope with an etched circle/dot reticle. So even if the electronics go out, I will still have an aiming reticle short of some catastrophic failure.
You think? To recap this thread after re reading the posts I offer this. I do not see where anyone thinks there is not a problem with holdover. But just like the rookie Pistol shooter jerks the trigger, the Rifleman should understand and practice his known MOA, and cartridge performance, set the zero to whatever (mine is 100 yrds on all rifles Iron or Scope) and use the tools he has to adjust accordingly at ANY distance. (not that I am in the habit of shooting rifles at thirty feet) Understanding exterior ballistics, trajectory, known size target guides as rangefinder assistance, dimensions of adjustment on sights, and dimension of subtensions on scope reticals are handy. I relate this like using a calculator, sure it makes math answers easy but you still should know how to do the math. At a NRA HighPower match 40 years ago I had more trouble going from standing to sitting than I did understanding the adj value on my A2 sights. Is holdover a problem, not any more than any other fundamental. Half of my rifles are iron sights including one Vernier on my Sharps 45/70. My scoped rifles are all 1 MOA accurate so my 100 yrd zero makes the math easy. I still prefer my scope reticles over a dot as the dot offers no subtension reference. The one dot I have on my Bushmaster is a 3MOA as I do not use it up close.
Having said all this, I don't want to go there as to why Rifles may not be your best tool for CQB.
That is the application this all started with abd has been basically ugnored in the thread.
Long range shooting has nothing to do with what started this
Maybe not .. maybe so. Trying to adapt rifles to pistol ranges created the holdover question. Trying to add multiple sights and such to the weapon to auto correct the need for holdover May in fact be possible but I believe the end does not justify the means when you can adjust from a POI anywhere the target presents. Seems like the more electronics and stuff will not only make the rifle balance poorly, be heavier and prone to things going wrong or trying
to decide what and which one weÂ’re looking thu and at the same time shut down most of our awareness skills cause of tunnel vision concentration in a busy room?
Churchmouse said it best in another thread that we loose the meaning in the words thru this medium and I am not the best writer but folks can do it anyway they like.
I think trying to buy my way around having not to holdover is like carrying around a ransom rest to cure trigger jerk.
Theres always that
Last edited:
This thread has given me pause as to how I have set up my home defense AR's.
25 yard matching red dot to laser using a good bore laser and then verifying on paper at the same distance.
Last night I went out and tested the the theory. Tonight I am going to tighten up on my distance's. I will do this inside the house as that is most likely where these will get the intended use. This will greatly reduce the effects being discussed in this thread.
There is no reason to set up a dedicated home defense rifle at 50 yards.
