A solution to hold over?

[dudley0]

There is no reason to set up a dedicated home defense rifle at 50 yards.

But what if you have a really big open house?

I have my laser and RDS sighted in for close range. I did have the laser (green) set up for really close, in the house range. I changed it out with a laser/light combo and have it set to the red dot right now.

Makes me think that having two different POI on the same gun might give too much margin for error.

 

[Jackson]

This thread has given me pause as to how I have set up my home defense AR's.
25 yard matching red dot to laser using a good bore laser and then verifying on paper at the same distance.
Last night I went out and tested the the theory. Tonight I am going to tighten up on my distance's. I will do this inside the house as that is most likely where these will get the intended use. This will greatly reduce the effects being discussed in this thread.
There is no reason to set up a dedicated home defense rifle at 50 yards.

There will be some distance at which you cannot overcome the sight-over-bore alignment problem by adjusting the sights.

 

[longbeard]

I'm a guy who shoots a lot of AR9 in USPSA. The holdover is a challenge for sure. As far as "solutions", any scenario can be invalidated and render the technique inadequate. That's just a black hole of "what if, but what about this".

Personally, I like the article and the technique and have played with it myself goofing around. I think it's a valid technique for certain situations. Anyone can figure out a holdover and learn them. However, judging how far you are from POI and what it needs to be while "under stress" is a whole other story. Any visual reference that helps that certainly can't hurt if you are trained with it.

My biggest concern is generally hitting a small target close or another issue I don't see mentioned. You're shooting through a window and POI on the target isn't really a concern until you pull the trigger and realize the muzzle was below the window.

For gaming, I have a small laser mounted at 3 O'Clock on my rail. It gives me a visual reference where my muzzle is on the vertical plane so I can avoid shooting through stuff if it's tight. It also allows me to roll the gun and use it like an offset device. I also use a 65 moa ring on my optic and I can use the top or the bottom of it. All similar to what rhino mentioned.

PS.
Evidently, my laser sucks because past about 7 yards in good daylight it's real dim.

 

[churchmouse]

But what if you have a really big open house?

I have my laser and RDS sighted in for close range. I did have the laser (green) set up for really close, in the house range. I changed it out with a laser/light combo and have it set to the red dot right now.

Makes me think that having two different POI on the same gun might give too much margin for error.

There are 2 HD duty AR's. That is the sole purpose for these 2 guns. Tonight I set them both up for Inside the house/possible outside in the yard (hope never to go outside)
There are other AR's for more distance. They are set up accordingly.

 

[churchmouse]

I'm a guy who shoots a lot of AR9 in USPSA. The holdover is a challenge for sure. As far as "solutions", any scenario can be invalidated and render the technique inadequate. That's just a black hole of "what if, but what about this".

Personally, I like the article and the technique and have played with it myself goofing around. I think it's a valid technique for certain situations. Anyone can figure out a holdover and learn them. However, judging how far you are from POI and what it needs to be while "under stress" is a whole other story. Any visual reference that helps that certainly can't hurt if you are trained with it.

My biggest concern is generally hitting a small target close or another issue I don't see mentioned. You're shooting through a window and POI on the target isn't really a concern until you pull the trigger and realize the muzzle was below the window.

For gaming, I have a small laser mounted at 3 O'Clock on my rail. It gives me a visual reference where my muzzle is on the vertical plane so I can avoid shooting through stuff if it's tight. It also allows me to roll the gun and use it like an offset device. I also use a 65 moa ring on my optic and I can use the top or the bottom of it. All similar to what rhino mentioned.

PS.
Evidently, my laser sucks because past about 7 yards in good daylight it's real dim.

Green light lasers are stronger.

 

[bwframe]

Seems like a lot of electronics to depend on to stay working and zero'ed through thick and thin.

How often do you verify working and zero'ed?

Why wouldn't you just verify and train to use a 2" offset inside and at inside distance? Hostage shot is top of attacker's head to middle forehead?

Outside distances hold dead on?

 

[rhino]

My biggest concern is generally hitting a small target close or another issue I don't see mentioned. You're shooting through a window and POI on the target isn't really a concern until you pull the trigger and realize the muzzle was below the window.

That's similar to when you shoot over the top of cover or concealment. One way to ensure that your muzzle is above the obstruction, which also allows you to remain lower relative to the obstruction, is to roll the rifle on its side. You can still use your regular sighting system (although it takes a little practice to use conventional iron sights that way), but it's natural if you have irons, a dot, or a laser on offset mounts that you would use that way anyway (or close to it).

 

[rhino]

There will be some distance at which you cannot overcome the sight-over-bore alignment problem by adjusting the sights.

This needs repeating several times during these conversations.

 

[longbeard]

Green light lasers are stronger.

It's green

 

[longbeard]

That's similar to when you shoot over the top of cover or concealment. One way to ensure that your muzzle is above the obstruction, which also allows you to remain lower relative to the obstruction, is to roll the rifle on its side. You can still use your regular sighting system (although it takes a little practice to use conventional iron sights that way), but it's natural if you have irons, a dot, or a laser on offset mounts that you would use that way anyway (or close to it).

I have an offset dot for that.

Edit: Which again has a holdover. Thus, the laser @ 3 o' clock

 

[pblanc]

The difference in the amount of hold over you need to use between a 25 and a 50 yard zero at very close ranges is really not very much. At and inside of 10 yards, the difference will be maximally 1/2". At 10-20 yards it will be somewhere between 1/2 - 1 inch. Of course, at 25 yards you will be dead on with the 25 yard zero and half to hold over about an inch and a quarter with the 50 yard zero.

I guess I could see those differences making the 25 yard zero worthwhile if you knew that particular weapon was never going to need to be used at ranges much beyond 40 yards or so.

The downside of the 25 yard zero is the amount of hold under you need to use at ranges beyond 45 yards or so. At 50 yards, your 25 yard zero POI is going to be over 2" above POA, at 55 yards it will be over 2 1/2" high, and by 60 yards it will already be over 3" high. Those ranges will require sight picture adjustments that are as great or greater than that cause by your sight over bore offset at point blank range.

I'm not arguing against the 25 yard zero. For some scenarios I think it makes good sense. But I prefer the 50 yard zero if there is any chance you are going to have to use the rifle at even moderate range.

 

[Jackson]

Seems like a lot of electronics to depend on to stay working and zero'ed through thick and thin.

How often do you verify working and zero'ed?

Why wouldn't you just verify and train to use a 2" offset inside and at inside distance? Hostage shot is top of attacker's head to middle forehead?

Outside distances hold dead on?

This has always kinda been my method.

 

[Jackson]

This needs repeating several times during these conversations.

It is there with pistols too. The distance where you notice is much shorter, and the offset much smaller, but it still happens. I see the difference between 3 and 5-6 yds with a pistol.

 

[pblanc]

This has always kinda been my method.

Agreed.

If you can develop a good sense of what a target at 20 and 40 yards looks like, and what a 2" and a 1" holdover look like on the target, with most ammunition and typical AR sights and optics, with a 50 yard zero if you use a 2" holdover for distances within 20 yards, 1" holdover for targets from 20 to 40 yards, and hold dead on for targets beyond 40 yards, you are going to hit within about 1/2" of your POA all the way out to just beyond 60 yards. That's pretty close.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It sounds like it has potential, but if it's not been stress-tested we are just guessing. My concern is, under stress, can you focus on the "nothing" between the dots instead of your eye going to one dot or the other?

I think holdover remains an issue even among well-trained and stress-inoculated shooters because it is the rarity and is not where subconscious performance is used to going. When a split second "shoot" decision pops up, you do what you "always" do and center the dot and pull the trigger. Longer ranges with more reaction time and less sense of startle are easier to compensate for. You have more conscious input. Attempts to compare longer range shooting and extreme close quarters are an apples to oranges conversation. It's different mentally even if the fundamental skills are mostly the same. If it were same-same, the military wouldn't have special schools dedicated to it. Standard rifle training would be sufficient. Having been through the Army's MOUT (Mission Oriented Urban Training, what at the time covered house-to-house style urban fighting) and various LE oriented training I'm pretty comfortable saying they are different things.

One of the advantages of that training is the realization it's difficult to train for, especially without organizational support. You can't surprise yourself. I can practice known and unknown distance shooting all day long, I can't recreate startle and subconscious response alone. It is much more difficult to train to subconscious levels then 50-300y shooting is. I need FoF, a realistic simulator, etc. So, yes, it's a "hardware solution to a software problem". It's a very common and difficult to remedy software problem, though. More so than many here seem to realize, and I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest it's likely none of them have shot someone actively trying to kill them or their buddies from double-arms length with an AR and properly utilized holdover.

To further muddy the waters, holdover may be sideways. In an urban environment you may not have the luxury of holding the rifle oriented "correctly" and utilizing available cover. I find left/right holdover to be even less intuitive than up/down holdover, especially on a moving target. And, of course, this is even harder for most folks to train for because few have access to ranges that will let them shoot from unorthodox shooting positions, set up barricades, etc.

My preference is a reticle that allows a dot to be at either POI and a readily apparent means to differentiate them. I find it to be significantly more intuitive and require less conscious processing power than hold over.

In short, I'm interested but not onboard until I can see it pressure tested in either realistic pain-feedback allowed FoF or real world shootings.