Union Decides To Kill Jobs

[ATOMonkey]

Originally Posted by Indy317
The list goes on and on. The only thing I think humans are "owed" is a safe life they can live free from harm. This means food, water, shelter, and safety. ..
Who "owes" them these things?

Yeah, seriously, no one is owed anything. In America you have the OPPORTUNITY to EARN those things, and that's about it.

 

[dross]

You aren't paid for how hard you work. You're paid how much it costs to replace you.

Perfectly said, perfectly accurate.

 

[Indy317]

They are not "on the dole".

They only have a job because of the US taxpayer. They are indirectly on the dole. I classify them as I do a Colts player: If it weren't for taxpayers, they either wouldn't have a job, or the benefits would be a lot less if they wanted to keep their job.

They are working at jobs you wouldn't do.

This same excuse is used by every single labor group out there:
-Cops
-Firefighters
-EMTs
-Nurses
-Teachers

Hell, I am now seeing it used by millionaire VPs, CEOs, CFOs, etc.. They claim the job is 80 hours a week and you are always on call. You have to be responsible for thousands to hundreds of thousands of employees. You have to be able to move around, because you only may last at one company five to ten years.

What makes all these people above somehow so special as to work a job that others won't do? Are union folks clairvoyant, do they have absolute proof of this? If you fired every person at that plant tomorrow, and posted their jobs at $15.50/hour, there would be no one showing up to apply? Only those humans beings currently employed at that plant are willing to work those jobs?

Only stupid people who don't know what they are talking about would have supported that.

I make $19.75 an hour. A new person makes about $17.50/hour. It is a quasi-government job. Our healthcare is going up $100/month unless you are in shape (they will be doing testing) then you get it back. Welcome to the real world. Welcome to taxpayer subsidized jobs. The UAW did a lot of good safety wise. They did it too good, they got laws passed. Now that there are laws, the UAW focuses on riches, money, benefits, etc.. Well, they pushed their wages sky high, so everyone else in America followed suit. Now we have nurses, those who work in hospitals, making almost UAW wages. So that means doctors have to make even more. Healthcare costs skyrocketed, and that put GM, Ford, and everyone else into a bind. My company never paid UAW wages, and they were able to handle the massive upswing in healthcare cost. If folks want healthcare, they are going to have to pay for it.

The only thing I side with this UAW Local on is the language about their retirement and being a UAW employee. However, if you want that, you will have to move. Those employees who discuss moving to other plants I have more respect for. No one is guaranteed a job that pays $30/hour, plus over-time, plus holiday pay, etc.. So the least a person could do is understand that if they want such a job, moving every five or so years might be required.

If you aren't working there, it's not your job, it's none of your business, you don't know what you are talking about.

Once you suck from the government Kool-Aid, it becomes everyone's business. Sorry, but that is just the way it is. Where I work we got no raise last year, likely won't get one this year. Health insurance going up, etc.. It may get to a point where I have to cut cable, cell phones, vacations to places, etc.. So?

Federal Government picks up the tab.

At which point it then becomes my business, and everyone else who pays any sort of mandatory taxes that go to the entity.

Yeah, seriously, no one is owed anything.

So you aren't owned private property rights? You aren't owed rights at all? Should it be survival of the fittest? Don't like the guy in front of you that cut you off, you are OK to kill him? Not owed a right to life? Where do you draw the line? For me, it is the right to not be victimized, to have food, water, and shelter. I am OK with paying a few pennies on the dollar for that. I know a lot of folks will say "I shouldn't be paying for someone's Section 8!" and I get where they are coming from. But then I could argue I shouldn't have had to pay for rural electrification, roads, military stuff, police, fire service, ambulance service, etc.. If one argues taxes are OK for police, fire, ambulance, and/or roads, then they have no leg to stand on to say "no one is owned anything." True individual freedom can never exist. Someone will always have something they want denied, by law or whatever. I am not very big on Constitutional rights, as the way they are set-up in this country, they are only what nine people say they are, nothing more. If you want a no holds barred country, look at Somalia, because that is exactly what you will get. So while no one is really owed food, water, safety, and shelter, if those aren't provided, you might get really tired constantly having to fight off starving, thirsty people.

 

[dross]

So you aren't owned private property rights? You aren't owed rights at all? Should it be survival of the fittest? Don't like the guy in front of you that cut you off, you are OK to kill him? Not owed a right to life? Where do you draw the line? For me, it is the right to not be victimized, to have food, water, and shelter. I am OK with paying a few pennies on the dollar for that. I know a lot of folks will say "I shouldn't be paying for someone's Section 8!" and I get where they are coming from. But then I could argue I shouldn't have had to pay for rural electrification, roads, military stuff, police, fire service, ambulance service, etc.. If one argues taxes are OK for police, fire, ambulance, and/or roads, then they have no leg to stand on to say "no one is owned anything." True individual freedom can never exist. Someone will always have something they want denied, by law or whatever. I am not very big on Constitutional rights, as the way they are set-up in this country, they are only what nine people say they are, nothing more. If you want a no holds barred country, look at Somalia, because that is exactly what you will get. So while no one is really owed food, water, safety, and shelter, if those aren't provided, you might get really tired constantly having to fight off starving, thirsty people.

To "owe" something means you have a debt. How can you be born with a debt? Debts must be entered voluntarily.

No one owes me property rights or any other rights. I was born with the right to own any property I can acquire without the use of force. No one owes me any property.

If someone owes me shelter, that means they have a debt to me simply because I was born. If I want shelter, I should exchange something of value with someone who can provide it.

Free exchange doesn't lead to a Somalia. Unchecked use of force causes that.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

There is no offer to KEEP ANY ONE employed there for any length of time and no ability to enforce it even if there was.

They were offered nothig but half wages, half benefits, at a scab company with severance from a company where they already have a labor contract more than twice as good. Only stupid people who don't know what they are talking about would have supported that.

You know, I did this once, at a company that wasn't unionized. Things were in a downturn, business was off. We had been working 7 days on and 7 days off. Management asked us if we'd be willing to work 5/2 at the same pay until things got better. We said, "Oh that wicked owner, trying to get us to work more for less pay. Oh no, we won't do that." Come the end of the year, we were all laid off and looking for other work. Of course, by that time, a bunch of other people in my field were looking for work too. In the event, I would much rather have worked at reduced salary and had a job, than be unemployed.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Well I am a tax payer also (as are the people we are talking about)and I don't feel it is any of my business what some other taxpayer decides about his job. Most of these people will transfer to other GM plants. If they took a cut in pay then the taxes they pay would go down by a like amount. Who do you think will make up that differance?
Shouldn't we want everyones wages and benefits to go up instead of down?
GM is making a profit now so don't say that keeping the wages they make now is putting the company out of business.

The only reason GM is making a profit (if they actually are) is because they got the government to screw a bunch of teachers and State Police and other folks out of their investment (secured stock) so the unions wouldn't have to suffer. Anyone can make a profit if they don't have to pay their bills.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

No one complained two years ago when the economy was better.
You don't want to support a union wage, buy a Kia. It's your money.

Ford didn't want, nor need a bailout,
Same American workers building the same products.
It must not be the workers or their wages.

When Cities loose manufacturing we all lose.
Indianapolis has faired better than most as far as manufacturing,
but when factories close, a greater burden is added to all of our shoulders.

Our Leaders in Washington turned a blind eye to the direction THEY chose to lead us.

I've been a Chrysler fan since I bought my first new one in 1981; haven't had anything else since. But I've bought my last Chrysler. Ford may have done a better job of managing their debt, but they aren't in terrific financial shape either. IIRC, GM's unfunded pension and health benefit obligations were a big reason they were in the hole.

I don't disagree that we need to hand on to our manufacturing capacity in this country, but we won't do it while unions unrealistically try to drive their wages and benefits higher in a world economy that won't support it. Most workers have figured that out. Perhaps that's the reason the vast majority of union workers in the US now work for the government.

 

[beararms1776]

-"I won't be able to have a 50" flat screen in every room of my home."
-"I won't be able to drop $10K a year in vacations."
*-"I won't be able to have a boat."
-"I won't be able to have a second home/cabin."
*-"I won't be able to have jetskis."

You can have a few things on the list (*) but you have to save. It's a material world and a lot of people spend more than they make on luxury items.
Some of those jobs at GM I'm sure don't require a college degree. Some get in because they know someone that knows someone that knows someone else that knows another person and they know someone.
I made $12 an hr. at the non union company I worked hard for fur 5yrs. and was greatful to get that. But in the end, it's the disgruntled lazy workers that don't like positive attitudes that somehow keep their jobs.
Save your money, forget about that crappy list and buy you some nice guns!

 

[beararms1776]

The greatest boss I ever had was in a machine shop I worked at for seven years. He seen the quality and good work I could do and was very fair with raises because I worked hard for it. He was a great guy to work for.

 

[Bosshoss]

Things were in a downturn, business was off. We had been working 7 days on and 7 days off. Management asked us if we'd be willing to work 5/2 at the same pay until things got better.

If things were slow and you were keeping up with demand working 7 on 7 off why would they want you to work more days.

The only reason GM is making a profit (if they actually are) is because they got the government to screw a bunch of teachers and State Police and other folks out of their investment (secured stock) so the unions wouldn't have to suffer. Anyone can make a profit if they don't have to pay their bills.

Show me the Links.

 

[Grizhicks]

I have to jump in here; several comments here & on the radio piece; "we/they have a contract". Yes and No; they have a contract with GM, not the new company. Unless, in the purchase agreement, the new company agrees to honor the old contract, they do not have to (basic contract law). While I may agree it's a rotten deal, the new company has every right NOT to buy the plant with the current contract. Bottom line, purchase without the contract, there is NO contract.

 

[Bosshoss]

Probably does, but if people were paid by what they produced rather than by the hours they worked it would never happen.



What's all this "none of your business" stuff? This is a discussion forum. In it, we discuss stuff. This is an item in the news, and the issues being discussed - labor, unions, factories closing, the economy - affect everyone.

I thought we were discussing it. I just don't understand how some complain about people or the goverment getting in our business or personal life but they have no problem getting in other peoples lifes.(not directed at you Dross) I just don't feel it is any of our business what these people decide to do. If they want a cut in pay that is their decision, if they are willing to risk their plant closing and not having a job that is also their decison. You are right what happens affects everyone but it is still THEIR decison like it or not.

 

[mrjarrell]

I thought we were discussing it. I just don't understand how some complain about people or the goverment getting in our business or personal life but they have no problem getting in other peoples lifes.(not directed at you Dross) I just don't feel it is any of our business what these people decide to do. If they want a cut in pay that is their decision, if they are willing to risk their plant closing and not having a job that is also their decison. You are right what happens affects everyone but it is still THEIR decison like it or not.

So, using your logic we shouldn't be discussing any news items at all, since they're none of our business. Yeah, that's going to go over well....

 

[Bosshoss]

What makes all these people above somehow so special as to work a job that others won't do? Are union folks clairvoyant, do they have absolute proof of this? If you fired every person at that plant tomorrow, and posted their jobs at $15.50/hour, there would be no one showing up to apply? Only those humans beings currently employed at that plant are willing to work those jobs?



I make $19.75 an hour. A new person makes about $17.50/hour. It is a quasi-government job. Our healthcare is going up $100/month unless you are in shape (they will be doing testing) then you get it back. Welcome to the real world. Welcome to taxpayer subsidized jobs. The UAW did a lot of good safety wise. They did it too good, they got laws passed. Now that there are laws, the UAW focuses on riches, money, benefits, etc.. Well, they pushed their wages sky high, so everyone else in America followed suit. Now we have nurses, those who work in hospitals, making almost UAW wages. So that means doctors have to make even more. Healthcare costs skyrocketed, and that put GM, Ford, and everyone else into a bind. My company never paid UAW wages, and they were able to handle the massive upswing in healthcare cost. If folks want healthcare, they are going to have to pay for it.

.

I guess you could be laidoff and your job could be posted for $10.00 an hour and people would be lining up for it also. People making $10 an hour and just surviving feel the same about you as you do a autoworker making $30 an hour.

 

[Bosshoss]

So, using your logic we shouldn't be discussing any news items at all, since they're none of our business. Yeah, that's going to go over well....

I am sure I said we were discussing it.
I guess my opinion doesn't count.

 

[Bosshoss]

He forgot to mention that all of the senior people from the closing plant will be bumping less senior people out of other plants and putting them on the street.

The plant I worked at (Marion GM) had hundreds of workers come from other plants and NO ONE lost their job.

 

[hornadylnl]

The plant I worked at (Marion GM) had hundreds of workers come from other plants and NO ONE lost their job.

Did they actually have a need for the extra labor or did they have 2 guys turning the same screw driver instead of one?

My factory shut down a couple production lines and filtered those workers into other lines. I knew it was only a matter of time for a layoff as all those extra workers were not necessary for current production and would only add labor cost to the end product.

 

[Uralguy]

I'm at Delphi/GMHG in Kokomo now. If you are not in one of the affected plants, it will be real easy to armchair quarterback this one.
How much does an individual have to make a year to afford the product they are building? How many people at $7.50 an hour will be buying a new vehicle this year? How many people making $7.50 an hour are buying a new house or dining out at a nice restaurant?
Delphi hired me and offered me the wage I make. With a contract that laid out the terms and length of the contract.
Now if I lose my job am I still liable for any contract I am in or not?They tried to hire skilled trades for $20.00 an hour. The people that came in to apply did not meet the standards that Delphi set. A huge amount of the applicants couldn't pass the drug screening. Delphi raised the wages to the prevailing wage. No one forced them. It was a choice they made to get people at the skill level they desired.
On another note I have not heard of any Union President or ranking officer cutting their own wages. The salary employees just had a meeting in which they were told that GM had decided that the salary work force was too expensive for the size of the plant. Rather than cut 1 or 2 big salary positions and save the 15% in wages they are after, they are going to cut 50 jobs and save the big boys.
I came from a management job in a family owned business. If they want a real eye opener, wait till the employee makes $7.50 an hour. You have no idea of what quality of employee you get at that rate. They are always looking for a better job. Turnover is unbelievable. As fast as you get a kid trained and showing up on time and dressed to be seen by the public the good ones find a better job with the skills you just gave them. The tards never leave. End of rant.
I will take my answer off the air.

 

[BloodEclipse]

Probably does, but if people were paid by what they produced rather than by the hours they worked it would never happen.

Contracts that pay for piece rate have been around a long time. At many places, production workers can earn more than Skilled trades if they are good producers.

What everyone seems to be missing in this story, is the fact that the UAW International went behind the backs and against the wishes of the dues paying members and continued to negotiate a contract. They then attempted to ram it down their throats.

Sounds a lot like our body politic.

A bunch of non-representing representatives.

UAW halts vote on giveback deal at Indy GM plant | freep.com | Detroit Free Press

"We pay the International to represent us, not commit fraud and work against us,"

 

[Rookie]

The last person pointed out what everyone else has missed. International is trying to force the wage cuts and local is refusing to bend. I think a lot of it has to do with what they've seen in the past few years. New castle, Indianapolis foundry, Delphi, just to name a few. Local unions are getting fed up with the greed of the international union and they are taking a stand.

Another thing. Everyone wants to blame Chrysler for their problems, but they forget that Daimler bought Chrysler, raped and pillaged them, and then tossed them out. Is it the worker's fault? We've made numerous concessions and we will make a lot more before it's over.