Union Ownership

[Doug]

Do you understand how a checkbook ledger works? Goes in's must be greater than goes out's. Pay and benefits go in the goes out's column. Product sales go in the goes in's column. In order to maintain a particular profit and have the goes out's to increase, the goes in's must get bigger.

How do I as a business man increase my cost of doing business and maximize my profits if the market doesn't support the price increase needed to raise pay and benefits?

Perhaps I was unclear; I meant the union-owned company could maximize the worker's income. It would do this by paying each person a fair wage. Since the management would be the Union, management would obviously make correct and fair determinations of what each one's wage should be.

 

[dross]

dross,
On this board purple is used to denote sarcasm. You get it by left-clicking on the "A" to the right of the word "sizes" at the top or the reply window.
If you did not mean your statement sarcastically, where is the situation you described being practiced?

Perhaps you haven't gotten the memo. I don't, nor will I ever use purple.

If you fail to get my sarcasm, there are one of two possibilites:

1. My writing was lacking.
2. Your reading ability was lacking.

Since I am a BRILLIANT writer, clearly it is unlikely number 1 is the issue. I leave the diagnosis of the likely problem to your deductive skills.

For those who fail to get my sarcasm, my post probably wasn't meant for you.

 

[BigMatt]

Perhaps you haven't gotten the memo. I don't, nor will I ever use purple.

If you fail to get my sarcasm, there are one of two possibilites:

1. My writing was lacking.
2. Your reading ability was lacking.

Since I am a BRILLIANT writer, clearly it is unlikely number 1 is the issue. I leave the diagnosis of the likely problem to your deductive skills.

For those who fail to get my sarcasm, my post probably wasn't meant for you.

Just wondering why you won't use purple.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

There are several threads about unions, including one about the GM stamping plant closing down because the UAW workers won't take a 50% pay cut.

Why don't the unions take some of their money and buy the factories in which their workers work. The unions could operate the factories with an eye toward fair treatment of the workers. All workers and all management employees would be union members. The workers could buy stock in their own company and make money as employees and as stockholders. You could even have special pricing or rebates for workers buying stock.

Has this ever been tried? What happened?

Would YOU buy into it?

The unions would just end up hiring non-union scabs, er ah temporary workers and pay them minimum wage with no benefits just like they pay the scabs to picket Walmart. It's interesting what happens when the shoe's on the other foot.

Kill Unions. End Communism. Lifelong Liberty!

 

[eatsnopaste]

While I am not in a union nor have I ever been in one I will say that I do enjoy the fact that when I work more than 40 hours I rec. over time pay for it. I enjoy the fact that I have health and vision insurance even if it is going up drastically. I like that my company has to spend some time and money making sure that the plant has fire extinguishers, hoses...proper ladders and other safety equipment. The fact that they aren't allowed to lock the doors and keep us in is a good thing, nor can they pay us in merch. from the company store....oh wait, those things are just things of the past and modern enlightened companies would never entertain such thoughts just to increase profits......oh yeah, those pesky work benefits brought to us because of the unions, despite the current business practices of the times, are sooo ourdated.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

It's quite simple, really.

First, I pay my CEO less money. How much less? As much less as you want. There are people who run companies who make as little as 100K.

What's that you say? You can't find anyone qualified to run your company that will accept a salary much lower than what you're already paying? Well, maybe you don't understand what you really need in a CEO.

Next, just lower your obscene profits.

What's that you say? What are profits, you ask? That's simple, just listen to the news. On the news you'll learn by implication that profits = gross revenue. What do you mean I'm wrong? Profits are actually gross revenues - expenses? Oh, I get it. You're using that accounting wizardry on me. Please just use real numbers and don't try to fool me with your accounting voodoo.

What, more objections about profit? Your stockholders will be mad if you reduce your profits? Why is your stockholders' needs more important than your employees' needs? Because your stockholders hire and fire you? What, are you that selfish?


Finally, if your labor expenses are so much, just draw into that secret fund of cash all businesses hoard to themselves so they can go on exploiting their employees while telling stupid lies and using creative accounting to get out of what you rightfully owe, which is a job to everyone you've ever hired.

You forgot the part where if you don't make enough profit, your shareholders bail on you and you can't attract new shareholders and your bond rate drops and you can't borrow from banks and you have no working capital with which to pay workers so they can pay their union dues.

It's an important bit to leave out, because the only slice of the whole business cycle thingie the union cares about is the dues-paying part.

While I am not in a union nor have I ever been in one I will say that I do enjoy the fact that when I work more than 40 hours I rec. over time pay for it. I enjoy the fact that I have health and vision insurance even if it is going up drastically. I like that my company has to spend some time and money making sure that the plant has fire extinguishers, hoses...proper ladders and other safety equipment. The fact that they aren't allowed to lock the doors and keep us in is a good thing, nor can they pay us in merch. from the company store....oh wait, those things are just things of the past and modern enlightened companies would never entertain such thoughts just to increase profits......oh yeah, those pesky work benefits brought to us because of the unions, despite the current business practices of the times, are sooo ourdated.

Good for you. I've never had a job that paid overtime in my life. I don't really feel deprived about it. My employers always expected me to do, well, my job, regardless of how long it took.

Never even thought about complaining about it. I guess if I ever work for anyone else again in my life, overtime should be number one on my list of demands.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

While I am not in a union nor have I ever been in one I will say that I do enjoy the fact that when I work more than 40 hours I rec. over time pay for it. I enjoy the fact that I have health and vision insurance even if it is going up drastically. I like that my company has to spend some time and money making sure that the plant has fire extinguishers, hoses...proper ladders and other safety equipment. The fact that they aren't allowed to lock the doors and keep us in is a good thing, nor can they pay us in merch. from the company store....oh wait, those things are just things of the past and modern enlightened companies would never entertain such thoughts just to increase profits......oh yeah, those pesky work benefits brought to us because of the unions, despite the current business practices of the times, are sooo ourdated.

An analogy, if you will. Government used to be small. Then people started getting more things from it and it got big - and started taking more things away from us. Using your thinking, we should just let big government continue on doing what it's doing; after all, we wouldn't have all these great benefits if it weren't for the government.

 

[Zimm1001]

I am a small business owner. Pro business all the way. The fact of the matter is; both business and unions need to have equal power. When either one gets too much power then either the business suffers or the workers suffer (notice I did not say Unions suffer). In this environment not only do the Unions have too much power (hence the guys drinking and smoking pot over lunch hour) but the gov't also hits businesses with over regulation. Business in America today exists despite the Unions and the Gov't. Not because of them.

What has always astonished me is when politicians like Obama stand up and slam businesses and those who start and build them but turn around and tout how they are going to create jobs and jobs. Hello.... businesses hire people. How can you be anti business but pro job. Maybe that should be a new thread. Yes, yes it should be. Coming right up.

 

[ATF Consumer]

Just wondering why you won't use purple.

He's a non-conformist!

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

I am a small business owner. Pro business all the way. The fact of the matter is; both business and unions need to have equal power. When either one gets too much power then either the business suffers or the workers suffer (notice I did not say Unions suffer). In this environment not only do the Unions have too much power (hence the guys drinking and smoking pot over lunch hour) but the gov't also hits businesses with over regulation. Business in America today exists despite the Unions and the Gov't. Not because of them.

What has always astonished me is when politicians like Obama stand up and slam businesses and those who start and build them but turn around and tout how they are going to create jobs and jobs. Hello.... businesses hire people. How can you be anti business but pro job. Maybe that should be a new thread. Yes, yes it should be. Coming right up.

I disagree with your assertion. A business owner needs absolute power. Power to act. Power to react. Power to expand. Power to contract. Without this power business will fail. Need an example? I'll give you two; Government Motors and its sibling government motors, Chrysler.

The worker needs the right to leave if the job isn't working out for them. The threat of walking should make the business owner's mind right. If it doesn't it's not a person I would ever work for.

Unfortunately today too many people are willing to sacrifice their principles in order to have a paycheck. Or worse, fail to compromise and live off the rest of us.

 

[dross]

Good for you. I've never had a job that paid overtime in my life. I don't really feel deprived about it. My employers always expected me to do, well, my job, regardless of how long it took.

Never even thought about complaining about it. I guess if I ever work for anyone else again in my life, overtime should be number one on my list of demands.

Overtime? That's what you put in to give yourself an edge over the other people selling THEIR labor to the guy buying your labor, AKA your employer.

See, I have a little business. I sell my labor - my skills, knowledge, and abilities - to the people who buy labor. Since I'm selling my labor, I'm in competition with all the people who sell the same kind of labor as I. I look for every advantage to put myself ahed of my competitors, as any good business owner should. One way I can do that - though there are many other ways - is to show up early and stay late. In fact, that's the very easiest way. It's like the baker's dozen - give a little more than what they're paying for, so you are more valuable than the other business owners, AKA employees.

 

[beararms1776]

But if the Union was the Management who would they demonize?!

Maybe the workers, eventually.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy
But if the Union was the Management who would they demonize?!
Maybe the workers, eventually.



Actually - read Animal Farm... and ask Napoleon the Pig.....


Dross - I can't rep you for the post above this last one. But I would if I could... Spot on.

 

[hornadylnl]

Perhaps I was unclear; I meant the union-owned company could maximize the worker's income. It would do this by paying each person a fair wage. Since the management would be the Union, management would obviously make correct and fair determinations of what each one's wage should be.

I guess union management bosses are made up of different genetics and brain matter if they aren't subject to greed and corruption.

 

[DeadeyeChrista'sdad]

Most of you guys are taking to the fringes without real knowledge of the whole matter. What eatsnopaste said is absolutely correct. Business DID do all of those things, some of them well into the 20th century. And it WAS unions that forced the changes in the law necessary to eliminate those abuses.
That said, large unions of today sometimes DO seriously impact a business' ability to profit, largely by their own inflexibility.
Here's a thought. Why don't you geniuses who refuse to see both sides of the issue run a business or two for a while, then join a labor union, or four, then get back to me.

 

[BloodEclipse]

But, if the top management was Union, wouldn't the workers trust that management was doing what was best for everybody?

You forgot the purple so I fixed it for you.

 

[jd4320t]

If the Union owned the company how would it protect it's employess from itself? I'm trying to see it in my head but fail to find a way it would work.

 

[BigMatt]

If the Union owned the company how would it protect it's employess from itself? I'm trying to see it in my head but fail to find a way it would work.

It couldn't. That's why it wouldn't work.

 

[Doug]

I guess union management bosses are made up of different genetics and brain matter if they aren't subject to greed and corruption.

The idea is to work it like a cooperative.
Since unions are always asking for a "fair" wage, they apparently know what "fair" is. That fair wage is what each person gets as salary. Everyone gets paid a salary and any excess is distributed to all employees.

 

[Doug]

If the Union owned the company how would it protect it's employees from itself? I'm trying to see it in my head but fail to find a way it would work.

You assume employees always need protection from the company. The idea is that the Union would not try to exploit the workers. Unions always say the company exploits the workers; this would be the Unions chance to show how a company should treat its workers.