Union Ownership

[Blackhawk2001]

What most of you have forgotten, since it didn't affect you directly, was that things like child labor, unsafe working conditions, seven day work weeks, no holidays, no healthcare, pay in the form of company merchandise are all things that did happen. The worst was probably not enough pay to live on, which forced people to live in company housing, buying from company stores at such high prices when all was said and done the employee owed the company money. Those things are all gone because of unions.

Our children don't have to work ten to fourteen hour days, seven days a week in work conditions that today would get a company shut down. You have a five day work week so you can spend time with your family. You get major holidays off so you can watch your kids open presents on Christmas day rather than having to trudge off to work. Most places offer healthcare so you don't go broke when get a broken arm set and cast. You get paid money rather than greeting cards. You could, until recently, earn enough to live somewhere and feed your family with a little left over to put away.

Employers don't do those thing because they think you're such a great and wonderful employee. They do it because if they don't they will either have to deal with a union coming in or have each and every last employee leave.

Doctors used to perform surgery without anesthetic; now they do.

Our main source of high speed travel used to be horses; not anymore.

Rifled muskets used to be the last word in personal armament; not for a long time now, though.

My point is that times have changed since we had child labor, and robber barons in industry oppressing the workers. Unions have, by and large outgrown their usefulness and union bosses are largely the tools of the Democrat Party. Add to that the number of union officials who've been convicted of racketeering.

I'm perfectly happy for you to be in a union, if you wish. Have at it. Just don't get pissed at everyone else who isn't interested in being a drone putting in their time; locked into a seniority-for-promotion system that emphasizes pay and benefits over productivity and seems to expect that the company owes them a job for life. That doesn't work for everyone anymore and it's not working for all of you, either. Life is change. Get over it.

 

[Arthur Dent]

I don't belong to a union.

Times have changed and will change again. It's not always for the better.

 

[Fletch]

What most of you have forgotten, since it didn't affect you directly, was that things like child labor, unsafe working conditions, seven day work weeks, no holidays, no healthcare, pay in the form of company merchandise are all things that did happen. The worst was probably not enough pay to live on, which forced people to live in company housing, buying from company stores at such high prices when all was said and done the employee owed the company money. Those things are all gone because of unions.

Our children don't have to work ten to fourteen hour days, seven days a week in work conditions that today would get a company shut down. You have a five day work week so you can spend time with your family. You get major holidays off so you can watch your kids open presents on Christmas day rather than having to trudge off to work. Most places offer healthcare so you don't go broke when get a broken arm set and cast. You get paid money rather than greeting cards. You could, until recently, earn enough to live somewhere and feed your family with a little left over to put away.

Employers don't do those thing because they think you're such a great and wonderful employee. They do it because if they don't they will either have to deal with a union coming in or have each and every last employee leave.

Correlation does not equal causation. Working conditions and wages are improving in third world sweat shops without union interference or threat of same, and for the same economic reasons that they improved here in spite of unions.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Do or did you offer a health plan? Pay overtime? Give vacations..gasp..even PAID vacation time? Did you try to keep your people safe while they worked for you? These are all things that were brought about by unions and...AND..would more than likely go away if everything were decided by the board of directors. It costs money to do these things and if it could be cut...it would be.

I pay 100% of the cost of health care for my employees and their families.

We do not have the concept of vacation, sick time, or personal time. I have an expectation that work gets done. I don't care how or when or who does it. They work it all out. When it's nice outside and my employees want to go spend the day on their boats, they do. If they need to work until 3A to get a project done, they do.

I don't provide a single one of these things because of a union. I provide them because I have an absolute all star team and they work far harder for me than anyone ought to. They treat me right. I treat them right. One is not predicated on the other.

Board of directors? It's good to be the king. I don't answer to anyone. But me. Wouldn't have it any other way.

I also provide lunch. Everyday. The fridge is stocked with what people want to eat. They eat better than I do sometimes. I know everyone by name. Their kids. Their spouses. I care. They care. We're a team, and a family.

No, I'm not hiring.

 

[ATOMonkey]

No, I'm not hiring.

DAMMIT!!

 

[dross]

I pay 100% of the cost of health care for my employees and their families.

We do not have the concept of vacation, sick time, or personal time. I have an expectation that work gets done. I don't care how or when or who does it. They work it all out. When it's nice outside and my employees want to go spend the day on their boats, they do. If they need to work until 3A to get a project done, they do.

I don't provide a single one of these things because of a union. I provide them because I have an absolute all star team and they work far harder for me than anyone ought to. They treat me right. I treat them right. One is not predicated on the other.

Board of directors? It's good to be the king. I don't answer to anyone. But me. Wouldn't have it any other way.

I also provide lunch. Everyday. The fridge is stocked with what people want to eat. They eat better than I do sometimes. I know everyone by name. Their kids. Their spouses. I care. They care. We're a team, and a family.

No, I'm not hiring.

What kind of company do you have?

 

[Lobb40118]

The idea is to work it like a cooperative.
Since unions are always asking for a "fair" wage, they apparently know what "fair" is. That fair wage is what each person gets as salary. Everyone gets paid a salary and any excess is distributed to all employees.

Leave the job if you do not like it. You are not being held against your will, nor are you in debt to the company store. You only have the right to the unpaid labor you have performed. If they pay you weekly and you have worked 40 more hours since your last paycheck, you are only owed 40 hours of pay. People who think just because they work somewhere for a long period of time that they are owed something more than their unpaid labor are wrong. Rationalize your socialism anyway you want, it is wrong. That being said if a union wants to buy and run a company more power to them, I highly doubt that it would work.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

What kind of company do you have?

I own a dot com and a manufacturing company. Dot com is a top 2000 trafficked website, 5 years old, and number one in its space. Manufacturing company is fairly new.

 

[Doug]

(1)Leave the job if you do not like it. You are not being held against your will, nor are you in debt to the company store. You only have the right to the unpaid labor you have performed. If they pay you weekly and you have worked 40 more hours since your last paycheck, you are only owed 40 hours of pay. People who think just because they work somewhere for a long period of time that they are owed something more than their unpaid labor are wrong. (2)Rationalize your socialism anyway you want, it is wrong. That being said if a union wants to buy and run a company more power to them, I highly doubt that it would work.

(1) Actually, I loved my job. I worked in health care and retired 2 years ago. I am so glad I "shrugged" when I did.

(2) I have no socialism; I have been parroting the Union line to let others shoot it down. The simple fact is that the unions do not do as I have suggested because they know it wouldn't work. No matter how well an employer treats its workers, the union always demands more and more and more. That's the way unions stay in business and the way Democrats stay in office: always demonize the opponent and demand that the "rich fat cats" pay more and more and more until you kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Then, you blame the goose.

Manufacturing has moved overseas because it was driven out of this country by wage demands and taxes.

Now, Obama will solve the problem with higher taxes on all those greedy @#$%*$'s who try to run a business.

 

[dross]

I own a dot com and a manufacturing company. Dot com is a top 2000 trafficked website, 5 years old, and number one in its space. Manufacturing company is fairly new.

Yeah, I've heard those porn sites are very lucrative. Just kidding.

What's your site? If you don't want it public on the board, pm me. I'd like to check it out.

 

[Bapak2ja]

I am a small business owner. Pro business all the way. The fact of the matter is; both business and unions need to have equal power. When either one gets too much power then either the business suffers or the workers suffer (notice I did not say Unions suffer). In this environment not only do the Unions have too much power (hence the guys drinking and smoking pot over lunch hour) but the gov't also hits businesses with over regulation. Business in America today exists despite the Unions and the Gov't. Not because of them.

Well said. Unlimited power, in the hands of company or union, is not a good thing. There must be someone to speak for the worker.

 

[Bapak2ja]

Why don't these things go away in non-union shops and places of employment?

I've worked in places where almost everyone was exempt, yet we still had vacation pay and health insurance. Why do you think that was?

I worked union and non-union shops. The non-union shops kept pace with the union because they 1) thought it was the right thing to do or 2)could not hire quality workers unless they kept pace with the union standards.

Note: They did not match union standards for pay and benefits, but they stayed close.

Without the union setting a standard, those companies would not have given the same pay/benefits in the non-union shop.

I appreciate you have treated your employees in an enlightened way. Respect you for it. But you are a rare man in this world. The vast majority of business owners will not do as you have done. They lack your integrity, character and human compassion. For those business owners, a union that can speak with a strong voice for the worker is necessary.

Unions can be as abusive as owners because they are run my men and women who lack integrity and who seek only their own profit.

Again, in my view, the best scenario is a wise union representing a wise workforce to a wise business owner. When both work well, the business prospers. Regrettably, this is probably an impossibility. Thus, The Law of the Jungle prevails, and the worker needs a little protection to counterbalance the power of the company/business owner.

 

[Fletch]

Again, in my view, the best scenario is a wise union representing a wise workforce to a wise business owner. When both work well, the business prospers. Regrettably, this is probably an impossibility. Thus, The Law of the Jungle prevails, and the worker needs a little protection to counterbalance the power of the company/business owner.

I just don't see it. If it were true, it would apply evenly across the board, regardless of the type of work being done by the employee. When I started, salary for a junior programmer with no experience was about $20k/year. If you were any good (and I was), you could job-hop (and I did), and drive that up to $30k in fairly short order.

When I finally settled on a place, they realized that they were being cannibalized by the competition, because as I've stated already, there are market forces at work outside the company that also determine wages and labor practices. To wit, EMPLOYERS COMPETE FOR WORKERS. When your workforce turnover is high, you start taking steps to retain it.

I walked in one day and my employer, who I'd agreed to work for at the rate of $30k/year, had unilaterally adjusted my salary to $40k/year because they were afraid I'd leave if they didn't. Mind you, I never threatened to leave, and to my knowledge there has never been a group of computer programmers ANYWHERE that had unionized and were dragging wages upward on behalf of all of us everywhere. This was in Detroit -- we were a short drive from EDS, which if anyone would have unionized programmers, they would have. But my employer was losing people at the rate of about 1 a month, having them recruited away by market forces in the form of people like Dross, and the cost of training new people was starting to wear on the projects we had going.

When that company got bought out by another company, they tried to entice all of us to stay to the bitter end with a big fat severance package. I don't know what I would have done with almost a year's salary in one big check (which again, was offered without any union involvement), but I didn't wait to find out. I jumped ship and have never regretted it.

Now, in defiance of all pro-union logic, I make roughly 3-4 times what you can pay to hire an Indian or Chinese dude. No union, no official "representation". You can get cheaper people than me all day long, yet my company is not even slightly tempted to do so. They just dropped a raise in my lap for the same reason my first company dropped a raise in my lap: retention. They don't want to see me go anywhere else, so they're pricing me out of the market. And our workdays and vacations work very much like SemperFi's do. If I need time off and it won't kill a project, my boss says go ahead. Executive Vice Presidents in my company come to work in shorts and sandals. The CEO wears a suit all the time, but we think there's something wrong with him . Yes, there are times when I work a 60-hour week without overtime, but that's the nature of the job, it's not "the man" abusing me.

All of this might just be anecdotal, but the exact same things are presently happening in sweatshops in China. Worker churn is forcing sweatshop owners to raise wages and improve working conditions. They're competing with one another for labor, whereas previously they were only competing with agriculture and subsistence-level incomes. Low productivity workers become more valuable as their productivity increases, and firms are starting to cannibalize one another for the workers who've shown that they can outproduce the average. This also has the effect of spurring defensive wage adjustment to prevent such cannibalism.

If unions were "necessary" to put a check on employers, those industries and professions that are as yet untouched by unionization should be completely unaffected by unions, beyond what has become federal law. But the problem with unions is that they take a myopic view of the workplace: the only transactions that exist in their eyes is the one between employees and one specific employer. They ignore or in some cases outright deny the existence of market forces outside the workplace, and that's why companies die under their weight.

 

[Lobb40118]

(1) Actually, I loved my job. I worked in health care and retired 2 years ago. I am so glad I "shrugged" when I did.

(2) I have no socialism; I have been parroting the Union line to let others shoot it down. The simple fact is that the unions do not do as I have suggested because they know it wouldn't work. No matter how well an employer treats its workers, the union always demands more and more and more. That's the way unions stay in business and the way Democrats stay in office: always demonize the opponent and demand that the "rich fat cats" pay more and more and more until you kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Then, you blame the goose.

Manufacturing has moved overseas because it was driven out of this country by wage demands and taxes.

Now, Obama will solve the problem with higher taxes on all those greedy @#$%*$'s who try to run a business.

LOL...good job, I thought you were really convincing. You had me going. It is interesting to see how some rationalize socialism as long as that socialism benifits them. "A Market for Liberty" is a good book that describes a world of true liberty and individualism. There is a free audiobook on the web. Can't remember where but I am sure a google search will find it.

 

[Son of Liberty]

Manufacturing was driven out of this country because of greed on the owners part, he see's a country where he can run his business, with what essentially is slave labor, and make closer to 100 percent profit.

Wages are going to be asked to be raised as the cost of living goes up, also, why is it that so many follks attack the workers for wanting decent wages, but there is very little said about the millions that they ceo's and other elite of the company are making.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Manufacturing was driven out of this country because of greed on the owners part, he see's a country where he can run his business, with what essentially is slave labor, and make closer to 100 percent profit.

Wages are going to be asked to be raised as the cost of living goes up, also, why is it that so many follks attack the workers for wanting decent wages, but there is very little said about the millions that they ceo's and other elite of the company are making.

It escapes me how people can live day to day and not understand the first thing about business.

A business has one single goal. To return enough profit to its shareholders that they are willing to invest. Companies move from one location to another for a number of reasons. Wage pressure is chief among them. Taxes is another. Qualified employment pool. Government regulations. Overall business climate.

I own a manufacturing company. I based it in Indiana. I don't need outside investors, the government prohibits the import of my product, and I was able to structure a lease, equipment purchase, raw material supplies, employment arrangements, etc. that allow profitable operation.

As we mature and are able to streamline our manufacturing processes, it will not take as many people as it does right now. Some will leave. I probably won't fire them, but through natural attrition we'll hit the right human resource mix.

My business does not exist to hire and pay people. It exists to pay me a rate of return better than I could get by investing in a bank savings account, or stocks, or bonds, or any other investment vehicle.

There is more risk for me to run a company. I'm on the line to lose my investment. Of course I expect a bigger reward if succcessful. It's like playing craps. If you play hard 4 all the time, the odds are you are going to lose. So when it hits the payout is greater.

Just an economic thing. The cost of living goes up because wages and the cost of raw materials are increased, not the other way around.

I can see why it's so easy to hate on people that make money. I mean, all that a CEO does is sit around. They don't even know what you do, right? There are more millionaires playing basketball, baseball, football, hockey, singing, acting, etc. than running companies. So let's all go down to Lucas Oil Stadium and demand that all the players play for minimum wage. It's just a game, right? They should play for free so that the common man can afford to take his kid to watch a game, right?

Wrong. People get paid what they get paid because the market has determined the rate for services. God Bless everyone who gets paid a lot of money. Rather then be envious, aspire to be one of them.

The solution to your jealousy is simple. Start your own business with your own money. Hire as many people as you want. Pay them more than they're worth. Set low expectations for their production. Let me know in six months how it's going.

 

[Fletch]

My business does not exist to hire and pay people. It exists to pay me a rate of return better than I could get by investing in a bank savings account, or stocks, or bonds, or any other investment vehicle.

RIGHT EFFING ON. Profits are what you make OVER the prevailing rate of interest at the same risk. At a certain point, the folks who insist that "excess" be paid out to workers will cause their employers to fold because it's easier to just put the money in the bank and collect interest. I've seen it happen, with my own eyes:

Way back in 1993, I worked for a time helping some folks put together a document for a large manufacturing concern. This document included productivity studies on around 15 plants, and my job was to collect the summary of all the data into a single spreadsheet labeled "appendix B" or somesuch. It showed the profitability of each plant, in order from highest to lowest.

I'll never forget the moment I handed my finished work over to the guy in charge. Without missing a beat, he took out a red pen and drew a line through the group, right around the 10% profitability mark. There were 4 plants below that line, and he said "those plants are closing tomorrow". I was a little shocked, and asked why, and he said exactly what SemperFi has implied: "Because we can put the money it costs to run those plants into the bank and make the same return for far less risk."

It is a fundamental rule of every boss in the private sector: You have to make me more than you cost me. That's why, when my employer's number-crunchers say that we're making around $160k per year per employee, it makes me feel really good -- I know the company's going to survive, because I make far less than that.

The solution to your jealousy is simple. Start your own business with your own money. Hire as many people as you want. Pay them more than they're worth. Set low expectations for their production. Let me know in six months how it's going.

PREACH IT, BROTHER!

 

[Woodrow]

I can assign no more reputation points today. This forum has been so refreshing as I work my non-agreement position supervising union employees. I work 60 hour weeks with no overtime, and I am glad to have the job I do.

There is so much I want to say, but as I have joined late and much has already been stated, I will simply say "Thank You," to those who have received my rep points. Reading such as this gives me hope.

When I work hard, I want to be rewarded for it. I want to know that I earned my position over the next man, not that I was simply hired on 3 days before him 30 years ago and have seniority. What an ego-crusher.

 

[dross]

The fundamentals of business and economics are actually very simple to understand. The hard part is that it goes against what many people want to believe.

Or as my Dad used to say, sh** in one hand and and wish in the other, and see which fills up first.

 

[ATOMonkey]

Or as the great Jack Sparrow said, "There is only what a man can do, and what a man can't do."