Commandant of the Marine Corps says no to Gays

[Juggernaut]

Sodomy is a violation of the UCMJ.....
Gay, straight or otherwise....

 

[dross]

I'm not sure I understand this part. You mostly agree with what I said and yet you disagree that I have an opinion? Are you arguing against my stance on the immorality of homosexuality and it's intrusion into society?

I'm saying that I don't believe in allowing homosexuals to serve as a social experiment. I think there are other reasons for the military to be nuetral about it.

I also don't think getting rid of DADT is a life and death matter.

I object to your absolutism, as if there is only one right and reasonable way to believe.

 

[dukeboy_318]

Sodomy is a violation of the UCMJ.....
Gay, straight or otherwise....

True true. Does that mean they'd have to change that too?! wow we r in for a huge mess

 

[dross]

Sodomy is a violation of the UCMJ.....
Gay, straight or otherwise....

I don't see the relevance of what's a violation of the UCMJ, since the debate is about Congress changing the UCMJ.

 

[dross]

Hmmm, eleven years? Did you take a short to re-up?

It was a program informally referred to at the time as, "Take the money and run."

 

[dukeboy_318]

The anal sex provision is in the usmj inorder to limit the spread of HIV or so our jag officer told us. Technically, the only authorized sex position is the missionary and between husbands and wifes at least according to the ucmj

 

[CorvetteTom]

It's my opinion and to me it IS absolutism.

The strength of our military is defined by conforming to regulations, not by doing your own thing. 250 years of the 'no gays' policy is suddenly wrong because why?

 

[dross]

Technically, the only authorized sex position is the missionary and between husbands and wifes at least according to the ucmj

Cites, please.

 

[Hoosier8]

I'm not sure I understand this part. You mostly agree with what I said and yet you disagree that I have an opinion? Are you arguing against my stance on the immorality of homosexuality and it's intrusion into society?

Corvette, imagine what it would be like if you were not allowed to serve you country because of <you own a Corvette>. Wouldn't you feel slighted in the least?

Gays have been serving in the military since it's inception. To deny this is to deny reality. I have agreed with the DADT policy because it allows all to have their illusions, but at some point in time, we have to face reality. Right now, the current crop of recruits are much less adverse to this than my generation.

I don't know the answer, but I would expect this to be much less of a problem than it appears to be.

 

[dross]

It's my opinion and to me it IS absolutism.

The strength of our military is defined by conforming to regulations, not by doing your own thing. 250 years of the 'no gays' policy is suddenly wrong because why?

You constructed your position in such a way that anyone who disagrees with you "is the problem" and you implied someone who disagrees doesn't care about the lives of Americans.

I care about the lives of Americans, and I disagree with you. You are disproven.

 

[Hoosier8]

The anal sex provision is in the usmj inorder to limit the spread of HIV or so our jag officer told us. Technically, the only authorized sex position is the missionary and between husbands and wifes at least according to the ucmj

Good Lord, how boring.

 

[dross]

Good Lord, how boring.

Don't worry, it's a myth.

 

[CorvetteTom]

You constructed your position in such a way that anyone who disagrees with you "is the problem" and you implied someone who disagrees doesn't care about the lives of Americans.

I care about the lives of Americans, and I disagree with you. You are disproven.

I certainly did. Because, in my opinion, people that want to experiment with soldiers lives are the problem.

Although you may say you care about them and yet you are willing to experiment. You do not know the outcome of allowing them to serve openly. Were I still serving I wouldn't appreciate, no, I would be angry that you, and people with your opinion, would want me to try it out to see if it works.

Hoosier8... owning a Corvette isn't necessarily or potentially a mental condition. Gays have been serving but haven't been serving openly. I'm saying that openly serving will create problems, potentially huge problems.

 

[dross]

The anal sex provision is in the usmj inorder to limit the spread of HIV or so our jag officer told us. Technically, the only authorized sex position is the missionary and between husbands and wifes at least according to the ucmj

Though you exaggerate about authorized positions, you make a good point.

Any service member who has engaged in oral sex with his wife has violated the UCMJ, whereas a gay man who admits he's gay is discharged administratively because of a policy that is not codified in the UCMJ.

That makes the gay man administratively discharged a better soldier than you closet criminals who just haven't been caught and prosecuted.

You can go to jail for having oral sex with your wife, you just get discharged for being openly gay.

 

[dukeboy_318]

Though you exaggerate about authorized positions, you make a good point.

Any service member who has engaged in oral sex with his wife has violated the UCMJ, whereas a gay man who admits he's gay is discharged administratively because of a policy that is not codified in the UCMJ.

That makes the gay man administratively discharged a better soldier than you closet criminals who just haven't been caught and prosecuted.

You can go to jail for having oral sex with your wife, you just get discharged for being openly gay.

Not exaggerating anything. Hang on, ill dig up the book I used to give this class in dec of 08, ill post the code numbers in a bit

 

[dukeboy_318]

Though you exaggerate about authorized positions, you make a good point.

Any service member who has engaged in oral sex with his wife has violated the UCMJ, whereas a gay man who admits he's gay is discharged administratively because of a policy that is not codified in the UCMJ.

That makes the gay man administratively discharged a better soldier than you closet criminals who just haven't been caught and prosecuted.

You can go to jail for having oral sex with your wife, you just get discharged for being openly gay.

Okay, here we go.

All of this was gained from copies of the standard Army sexual briefing slide show. According to the slide show, all information is from the UCMJ MANUAL FOR COURTS MARTIAL.

920.ART.120. Subsection A) Any person subject to the UCMJ who commits an act of sexual intercourse with a female not his wife or male not her husband, regardless of marital status shall be punished as a court-martial directs.

925.ART.125 subsection A) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in unnatural carnal copulation or acts of none vaginal intercourse with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration, however slight is sufficient to complete the offense.
Subsection B) any person found guilty of sodomy shall be punished as a court-martial directs.

Article 120 para 45(b(13). The UCMJ defines sodomy as any sexual act other than vaginal intercouse from a natural position. A natural position is defined as the "missionary" position or the male on top of the female during vaginal intercourse.

 

[Garb]

I certainly did. Because, in my opinion, people that want to experiment with soldiers lives are the problem.

Although you may say you care about them and yet you are willing to experiment. You do not know the outcome of allowing them to serve openly. Were I still serving I wouldn't appreciate, no, I would be angry that you, and people with your opinion, would want me to try it out to see if it works.

Hoosier8... owning a Corvette isn't necessarily or potentially a mental condition. Gays have been serving but haven't been serving openly. I'm saying that openly serving will create problems, potentially huge problems.

Who's experimenting? Last time I checked, most people join the military to serve their country, for college money, for an experience, etc. And while I happen to agree that being gay may be a mental issue, it's a pretty subjective conclusion, and there are probably plenty of experts who would disagree with you. Of course, they must all be gay too... everyone's got a hidden agenda...

 

[Compatriot G]

Here is something that those that have never been Marines don't understand. The Marine Corps is probably the most "conservative" branch of the military. We don't like change! I have read the stories of Marines in WWII not wanting to trade in their Springfields for Garands. I have talked to Marines that didn't want to exchange their M-14s for M-16s. I was in when we switched from 1911s to Berettas. While I liked having a new pistol, I really didn't want to give up that 40 year-old Ithaca. The Marine Corps eats, breathes and lives tradition.

I know some of you will remind me that change happens and whether or not the Marine Corps likes it, they will follow orders. This is true. However, I think I know why the Commandant is really against the change in policy. He knows what can happen to openly gay Marines. While I'm not admitting to anything, I am aware that "things" happened to gay Marines when I was in. I'm not condoning that behavior. Hindsight tells me that things like that shouldn't have been done. However, it did happen. Gay Marines frequently had "accidents" in the barracks. I would be willing to bet they may still be having "accidents" in the barracks. I really don't think it is wise to put heterosexual Marines in a position where they believe their only recourse is to cause physical harm to somebody else. I also think it isn't right to expose homosexual Marines to the possibility of physical harm just because the homosexual lobby wants to advance their agenda of forcing people to accept their lifestyle. It would be best to leave DADT alone, at least in the Marine Corps.

 

[dross]

Okay, here we go.

All of this was gained from copies of the standard Army sexual briefing slide show. According to the slide show, all information is from the UCMJ MANUAL FOR COURTS MARTIAL.

920.ART.120. Subsection A) Any person subject to the UCMJ who commits an act of sexual intercourse with a female not his wife or male not her husband, regardless of marital status shall be punished as a court-martial directs.

925.ART.125 subsection A) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in unnatural carnal copulation or acts of none vaginal intercourse with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration, however slight is sufficient to complete the offense.
Subsection B) any person found guilty of sodomy shall be punished as a court-martial directs.

Article 120 para 45(b(13). The UCMJ defines sodomy as any sexual act other than vaginal intercouse from a natural position. A natural position is defined as the "missionary" position or the male on top of the female during vaginal intercourse.

Yeah, I looked that up, too. Where does it say anything about positions?

 

[TopDog]

Say what you want I agree with the Commandant of the Marine Corps. Everyone wants to throw their personal experience in. OK I was in for 23 years and I never knew of a gay Marine. Maybe there were some, if they existed I didn't know it. There sure as hell wasn't any running around making an issue of it.

The pursuit of life liberty and happiness. Yeah if you join and you serve you give up some rights, as it should be, as it has to be. So that the whole machine runs.

The thing about the Marine Corps not wanting to change, being founded on tradition. That is spot on. If you were not a Marine, if you didn't experience the Corps, the Mess Nights, Marine Corps Birthdays, all of it, then you don't know how deep tradition runs in the Corps. The Marine Corps is profoundly steeped in tradition. But that does not mean it doesn't change. The Marine Corps constantly changes in order to survive. The Marines of today are meeting challenges that are unique to this generation. What ever happens the Marine Corps will survive. But allowing openly gay personnel to serve will have a negative effect, no doubt in my mind. No one is going to change my mind. Good night, have a fun debate