Stop posting about here...
Please, do tell. What exactly are we allowed to post about on this website (in your excellent opinion)?
Stop posting about here...
If things were so traumatic for you why didn't you just punch him or something? Good grief!! While your LTCH check might not have been done the ideal way it isn't the end of the flipping world. IMO your snippy and defiant type remarks only makes things worse. That was not the place to be addressing your concerns or making a scene. Wow I hope you are never in a real situation based on how this went down. Show the guy your pink slip and your ID and be done with it.
FWIW- The problem with a Indiana LTCH is the no picture part. Anyone can print out a fake and it is done quite commonly.
What is the big deal about refusing to present your ID? Is it a pride thing? Is it just because you know you don't legally have to?
I'm not wanting to argue about it, I'm not even saying I agree or disagree with it. I'm just wanting to understand, that's all.
J... Are you trolling, forgetting the purple, or just full of FAIL?
We license holders have already jumped through the hoops of obtaining our 2ndlittle amendment rights but I see no where on my license where I have to submit to lectures by LE. The officer's opinion on how this fella is carrying amounts to contempt of cop, nothing more.
OP, you should have told Officer Friendly since he's higher on the food chain why hasn't he complained up the chain to the state police about not putting a picture on the gun license? Which court case was it that found once a state weapon license is presented questioning is supposed to cease (State v Richardson)
ALSO...please site your source where criminals run off copies of weapons carry licenses. Enlighten us all
I have jumped through all the same hoops as anyone else and then some. I have had a LTCH since I was 19 years old (51 Now) I didn't particularly enjoy all the hassle and money but I sucked it up and did it anyway...even when it wasn't required for me.
I do not and have never lectured anyone not related to me on how to carry. I don't agree with someone doing that.
I was at a home on a warrant service where we took an entire stack of LTCH's in plain view, complete with different computer generated numbers on each, all ready to have names and addresses filled in. Ready to be sold to who knows whom. Wide spread problem? I don't know for sure. But if I ever do need to check one I will do it via radio or MDT to be sure. They are to simple to fake.
+1. Seems to me that holding on to your LTCH or ID so you can't leave as a means to keep you there and listen to a lecture classifies as being detained against your will at that point.Then you were being detained. I can't find the citation, but I will look for it (unless someone else knows of it offhand). I'm sure I read that if the officer refuses to return your ID, then you are being detained. I would suggest that it is even more true if he did so even after verifying the legitimacy of your license. According to the law, the investigation should end 1immediately. Not "immediately after a lecture".
Would you agree though that providing a picture ID is not required by law to verify an LTCH?I have jumped through all the same hoops as anyone else and then some. I have had a LTCH since I was 19 years old (51 Now) I didn't particularly enjoy all the hassle and money but I sucked it up and did it anyway...even when it wasn't required for me.
I do not and have never lectured anyone not related to me on how to carry. I don't agree with someone doing that.
I was at a home on a warrant service where we took an entire stack of LTCH's in plain view, complete with different computer generated numbers on each, all ready to have names and addresses filled in. Ready to be sold to who knows whom. Wide spread problem? I don't know for sure. But if I ever do need to check one I will do it via radio or MDT to be sure. They are to simple to fake.
As near as I understand it - unless you've committed a crime or they have reasonable suspicion that you were about to commit a crime - you do not have to ID yourself that I'm aware of... If there were - officers could go walking down the street just asking everybody for IDs to see who does or does not have warrants (or any other reason).Would you agree though that providing a picture ID is not required by law to verify an LTCH?
Amen to this.
I've never had a negative experience with an NPD officer, but I've only dealt with the uniformed patrolmen during a traffic stop or when when we've called them out about an issue. They've always been perfect gentlemen, at the very least.
You are not required to provide photo identification, only ID yourself. The burden of proof is on the LEO in the event that you did commit a crime, thus you don't have to say anything other than name, DOB, and address. If questioning involves the carry of a handgun, then you simply hand over the LTCH as your prints are on file, and the requirement to get a LTCH is more stringent than that of a driver's license.
Up until the part of the law that says "The burden of proof is on the defendant to prove that he is exempt under section 2 of this chapter, or that he has a license as required under this chapter."
Presenting the LTCH does just that.
Even if it is not yours?
Handing over the pink slip shows that you are licensed, they can call and verify it's valid and active if they want. Once that is said and done - you've proven you're exempt and good to go.Up until the part of the law that says "The burden of proof is on the defendant to prove that he is exempt under section 2 of this chapter, or that he has a license as required under this chapter."
One simple solution would just be to have a LTCH similar to a driver's license, with a photo and/or thumbprint of the holder.
A better way would just be to have the LTCH as an 'endorsement' on the driver's license. Less paperwork to carry, anyway.
The error by the OP was not asking the LEO for his Police ID. Sorry, you MAY be a cop, but you're NOT a cop until you verify that you are.
Citizens have the right to know with whom they're dealing, just as LEO's do. The cop should've properly identified himself at the onset.
As an LEO, if I'm unsure of your identity, or believe that the LTCH is fake, I have the authority to make sure you're the person identified on the LTCH, since there ARE fake LTCH permits out there.
As a citizen, I can be cooperative or uncooperative, MY choice.
As a LEO, I can be cooperative or uncooperative, MY choice.
That said, being uncooperative certainly CAN reasonably lead any LEO to conclude there's "something more to the story", and therefore further investigate.
Just depends on how 'you' (civilian OR LEO) want your day to go.
I prefer fun days! Of course, I don't get stopped / detained for carrying. Not once in, approximately, 4 decades. Guess I look like a cop, LOL.
I don't know any LEO's that OC off duty, but surely there are some out there. I've just never seen or met them.
Case law supports that nothing more is required than presenting the LTCH. I believe it was Richardson v. State but if not someone will be along shortly to correct me.