Woman, with child, bumps gate at/near White House, police chase, shoot, kill her

[LANShark42]

Armchair quarterbacks:

Saving the world... One. Post. At. A. Time.

 

[lucky4034]

Has anyone seen video of the actual shooting? Did the police shoot into the car at close range or at a distance? Although I think the use of force was probably justified in this case based upon what we have seen of it, knowing the circumstances of the actual shoot could change that opinion, if it ever comes out.


In answer to Kutnupe's posited scenario : It depends. It depends upon whether there was a known or suspected threat in addition to the small plane - such as if a WMD was suspected to be involved. It would depend upon the perceived threat level; there's no sense downing an airplane if the damage on the ground is going to be as bad or worse than letting it hit the target. It also depends somewhat on the relative speeds of the aircraft. In the posited case, the F-15 couldn't maintain formation with the Cessna (we're assuming a 152, 172, or 180 for these purposes) so most likely a Capitol Police helicopter would have been "scrambled" intercept and force the aircraft down, if necessary. All measures short of destroying the aircraft would have been taken before the order was given to shoot down the plane. BUT: had there been indications of a significant threat from the Cessna, and if other measures weren't sufficient or available to divert the aircraft from the security area, the order would have been given to shoot the plane down. And if the Cessna pilot had swerved the aircraft into a collision course with the F-15s, THAT would have been taken as an indication of hostile intent and would likely have led to the shootdown order being given.

Had they pulled the trigger when they were IN DANGER... then I wouldn't disagree. However... she had cleared all of the police and they ran after her as she sped away with guns blazing.

She died in a separate altercation... its unclear if she was shot to death in her car or executed while she was exiting it (unarmed)

 

[mrjarrell]

Family of woman killed by Capitol Police speak out (VIDEO) | The Libertarian Republic

 

[IndyDave1776]

Armchair quarterbacks:

Saving the world... One. Post. At. A. Time.

Summary Execution: Keeping taxes down one potential inmate at a time!

 

[BravoMike]

She died in a separate altercation... its unclear if she was shot to death in her car or executed while she was exiting it (unarmed)

There where two places where shots were fired. One we know from the video when she was fleeing the police. Where were the other shots fired? Was it at the beginning of the altercation or the end? I'm asking because I'm curious if the first time she was shot at was when she bumped a security guard at the outer perimeter and the leathal shot happened when she was fleeing the police on the video.

 

[sig1473]

This is by far one of the best threads on INGO for a long time.
-1 Burger King

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Had they pulled the trigger when they were IN DANGER... then I wouldn't disagree. However... she had cleared all of the police and they ran after her as she sped away with guns blazing.

She died in a separate altercation... its unclear if she was shot to death in her car or executed while she was exiting it (unarmed)

Okay, let's try a hypothetical here, just for illustration: You just ran your car into mine in a parking lot. I witness it and confront you as you are about to pull away. Instead of stopping to talk to me, you brush me aside with your fender, and head for the exit. A car blocks you, so you back up at high speed down the parking lane back toward me. I pulled my car out, blocking you, and you hit my car, trying to push it aside so you can escape. That doesn't work, and at this point, after it looks like you've tried to run me down twice, I have my pistol out pointed at you and am yelling for you to show me your hands. Instead of showing me your hands, you jump out of the car and spin around to face me. 1. Do you think in such circumstances I have a legitimate fear of your intentions? 2. Do you think I would be justified in using deadly force before you have another chance to use deadly force against me? 3. Do you seriously suppose I'm worrying about your state of mind instead of making judgments based on your actions?

 

[Destro]

Okay, let's try a hypothetical here, just for illustration: You just ran your car into mine in a parking lot. I witness it and confront you as you are about to pull away. Instead of stopping to talk to me, you brush me aside with your fender, and head for the exit. A car blocks you, so you back up at high speed down the parking lane back toward me. I pulled my car out, blocking you, and you hit my car, trying to push it aside so you can escape. That doesn't work, and at this point, after it looks like you've tried to run me down twice, I have my pistol out pointed at you and am yelling for you to show me your hands. Instead of showing me your hands, you jump out of the car and spin around to face me. 1. Do you think in such circumstances I have a legitimate fear of your intentions? 2. Do you think I would be justified in using deadly force before you have another chance to use deadly force against me? 3. Do you seriously suppose I'm worrying about your state of mind instead of making judgments based on your actions?

You would be fine as long as your not in Law Enforcement

 

[lucky4034]

There where two places where shots were fired. One we know from the video when she was fleeing the police. Where were the other shots fired? Was it at the beginning of the altercation or the end? I'm asking because I'm curious if the first time she was shot at was when she bumped a security guard at the outer perimeter and the leathal shot happened when she was fleeing the police on the video.

The end... the entire situation ended with shots fired.

 

[lucky4034]

Okay, let's try a hypothetical here, just for illustration: You just ran your car into mine in a parking lot. I witness it and confront you as you are about to pull away. Instead of stopping to talk to me, you brush me aside with your fender, and head for the exit. A car blocks you, so you back up at high speed down the parking lane back toward me. I pulled my car out, blocking you, and you hit my car, trying to push it aside so you can escape. That doesn't work, and at this point, after it looks like you've tried to run me down twice, I have my pistol out pointed at you and am yelling for you to show me your hands. Instead of showing me your hands, you jump out of the car and spin around to face me. 1. Do you think in such circumstances I have a legitimate fear of your intentions? 2. Do you think I would be justified in using deadly force before you have another chance to use deadly force against me? 3. Do you seriously suppose I'm worrying about your state of mind instead of making judgments based on your actions?

I'd say anytime that you are in immediate danger you have an immediate decision to make.... If you are in grave danger, then I believe you have the authority to make a reaction that is equally grave...ie shoot. Once you are no longer in grave danger, then that authority ceases. If you decide NOT TO SHOOT when being threatened, then you do not gain that authority once the threat subsides and speeds away.

With that said... if that lady had ran over a few people with her car and you shot her speeding away... then you may be justified.

These police were no longer in grave danger and this lady did not purposely run over anyone prior to speeding away. Its hard for me to say that they reacted justifiably.

..................


As for her being shot and killed near the Capitol building... there is no information as to what happened except that she was shot in her stopped car or while trying to exit her stopped car. We don't know if she was shot from 4 feet away, 40 feet away or 400 feet away, so to judge whether or not the shoot was justified is impossible. We simply do not know what type of threat she posed to anyone... all we know is that the police took the extreme authority to pull the trigger as if someone was in grave danger. I'd really like to know at what range she was shot to death. Of hand, I'd wager that she was shot at a greater distance than 40 feet by someone with an AR

 

[Trooper]

Summary Execution: Keeping taxes down one potential inmate at a time!

And to think that it could be assumed that this meant one less democrat voting.....

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I'd say anytime that you are in immediate danger you have an immediate decision to make.... If you are in grave danger, then I believe you have the authority to make a reaction that is equally grave...ie shoot. Once you are no longer in grave danger, then that authority ceases. If you decide NOT TO SHOOT when being threatened, then you do not gain that authority once the threat subsides and speeds away.

With that said... if that lady had ran over a few people with her car and you shot her speeding away... then you may be justified.

These police were no longer in grave danger and this lady did not purposely run over anyone prior to speeding away. Its hard for me to say that they reacted justifiably.

..................


As for her being shot and killed near the Capitol building... there is no information as to what happened except that she was shot in her stopped car or while trying to exit her stopped car. We don't know if she was shot from 4 feet away, 40 feet away or 400 feet away, so to judge whether or not the shoot was justified is impossible. We simply do not know what type of threat she posed to anyone... all we know is that the police took the extreme authority to pull the trigger as if someone was in grave danger. I'd really like to know at what range she was shot to death. Of hand, I'd wager that she was shot at a greater distance than 40 feet by someone with an AR

Once she was stopped, ANY RESPONSE that did not involve doing exactly as she was told to do, under the circumstances, would lead to a reasonable suspicion that she was going to attempt to do more harm.

I've watched "dash cam" footage of a police officer attempting to be reasonable with an unreasonable subject, who eventually pulled an M1 Carbine from inside his vehicle and killed the officer in a bloody gun battle. Lesson learned: Don't give your suspect an opportunity to shoot you.

 

[lucky4034]

You can't tell me that being an "unreasonable person" is good enough excuse to execute someone on the spot. Sometimes unreasonable people get the upper hand and tragedies happen, but do we really want to shoot every unreasonable person based on a slim minority of outcomes?

Once she was stopped, if she started to get out and run -- unarmed I might add... and was shot from 200 feet by a point man...lets say this guy

... then I would have to disagree with you. Again, I'm not saying that she wasn't justifiably shot... I'm just saying we don't have the information. You don't see police officers shooting people in Los Angeles for running away on foot. (well.. you might, but you wouldn't justify it so easily)

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Fear is not a reason to kill anyone.

Where does this nonsense come from? Is this on the Alex Jones or Ron Paul website?

As a matter of law, fear, reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death, is a reason to kill someone.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

You can't tell me that being an "unreasonable person" is good enough excuse to execute someone on the spot. Sometimes unreasonable people get the upper hand and tragedies happen, but do we really want to shoot every unreasonable person based on a slim minority of outcomes?

Once she was stopped, if she started to get out and run -- unarmed I might add... and was shot from 200 feet by a point man...lets say this guy

... then I would have to disagree with you. Again, I'm not saying that she wasn't justifiably shot... I'm just saying we don't have the information. You don't see police officers shooting people in Los Angeles for running away on foot. (well.. you might, but you wouldn't justify it so easily)

We don't know who shot her, but I'll bet that picture of a cop covering his sector had nothing to do with who shot her.

 

[lucky4034]

Where does this nonsense come from? Is this on the Alex Jones or Ron Paul website?

As a matter of law, fear, reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death, is a reason to kill someone.

Do you personally think that this situation would have created the same level of "fear" 10 years ago? 20 years ago? 50 years ago?... or over the last 15 years has our society grown hypersensitive to fear and is it plausible to attribute the growing frequency of these types of outcomes to this shift in fear?

If "fear" continues to grow in society... will we keep widening the response standards? If police become so fearful in the future that they start shooting anyone who runs away... will "fear" continue to justify it all?

....

Keep in mind that I am not blaming the police officers for what happened here... its beyond obvious to me that this isn't an isolated incident, but rather a widespread shift in operational standards and I'm trying to wrap my mind around what is the underlying root cause of this shift?

 

[JetGirl]

over the last 15 years has our society grown hypersensitive to fear and is it plausible to attribute the growing frequency of these types of outcomes to this shift in fear?

Why wouldn't it? Since longer than that, people medicate more and more over a relationship break up or paper cuts these days. Not to mention when little Johnny can't sit still for 7 hours in kindergarten, he gets medicated. It shouldn't come as any surprise that perceptions and feelings get altered. Most of that crap messes with your mind in one way or another. If I recall, it's called "side effects", which are sometimes worse than the problem you were medicating for...

 

[rambone]

ts unclear if she was shot to death in her car or executed while she was exiting it (unarmed)

Carey was shot without exiting the car, confirmed Senate Sergeant at Arms Terrance Gainer.


When her car got stuck in the grass they finished her off. I heard ABC News say on the radio that day that police were "authorized" to use force. Meaning, it did not matter if anyone's life was in danger. The panicky dental hygienist was taken out like a military target.

 

[lucky4034]

Why wouldn't it? Since longer than that, people medicate more and more over a relationship break up or paper cuts these days. Not to mention when little Johnny can't sit still for 7 hours in kindergarten, he gets medicated. It shouldn't come as any surprise that perceptions and feelings get altered. Most of that crap messes with your mind in one way or another. If I recall, it's called "side effects", which are sometimes worse than the problem you were medicating for...

I have a different theory on why "fear" is growing.... I think fear is being sold by the media and even the 2 party political system. I don't know if its purposely designed that way by some sort of shadow government... or if this phenomena came about organically as a symptom of 2 party politics as each party uses national events to emotionally sell its agenda. But what I do know is that Fear is the ultimate motivator!

Events in grand scale like 9/11 create a ripple in societies evolutionary pathway. If we were headed in one direction as a society before 9/11... that first plane hiting the building certainly knocked us off of our path. The media has instilled so much fear (maybe fear is good for ratings.. or maybe they are being directed to sell us fear) into our society, that collectively, we've voted ourselves into bankruptcy, we've voted away most of our 4th amendment rights and we are empowering enforcement agencies with a blank check to expand their authority and operational limits.

If society seems warped now... whats it going to be like in 10 more years? How about for our kids? At some point we are going to have to stop being scared to get back on course........

 

[j706]

I have a different theory on why "fear" is growing.... I think fear is being sold by the media and even the 2 party political system. I don't know if its purposely designed that way by some sort of shadow government... or if this phenomena came about organically as a symptom of 2 party politics as each party uses national events to emotionally sell its agenda. But what I do know is that Fear is the ultimate motivator!

Events in grand scale like 9/11 create a ripple in societies evolutionary pathway. If we were headed in one direction as a society before 9/11... that first plane hiting the building certainly knocked us off of our path. The media has instilled so much fear (maybe fear is good for ratings.. or maybe they are being directed to sell us fear) into our society, that collectively, we've voted ourselves into bankruptcy, we've voted away most of our 4th amendment rights and we are empowering enforcement agencies with a blank check to expand their authority and operational limits.

If society seems warped now... whats it going to be like in 10 more years? How about for our kids? At some point we are going to have to stop being scared to get back on course........

Who's scared? Do you know anyone that is scared? Everyone I know and associate with are concerned about our country and the damage the idiot in control is doing. But I don't know of anyone that is scared. Determined? Heck yes. PS; Don't watch the news if you do. They have it all wrong and do nothing but attempt to manipulate how folks think.