Carry in Church that has "School"

[Timjoebillybob]

All good advice above.
It's only a school if it is "State Licensed" as a school. Then you will need permission from the owners to carry there.

If just a school, ask the principal and the school board.
If it's a church, just pray and ask God for permission.

It actually doesn't matter if it's a licensed pre-school/daycare. It's if they are required to be licensed....... So if you carry over to your neighbor's house for a bbq and they happen to be running an unlicensed daycare (which should be licensed by law), you just committed a felony.... Or perhaps are delivering pizza. Oh and here is the real fun one, how about home schoolers? From my understanding their home is a school per IC.....

Also principal doesn't work anymore. The new law is this.
IC 35-47-9-1

(2) A person who may legally possess a firearm and who has
been authorized by:
(A) a school board (as defined by IC 20-26-9-4); or
(B) the body that administers a charter school established
under IC 20-24;
to carry a firearm in or on school property.

Well, while this is good advice, it isn't totally accurate.

IC 35-41-1-24.7
"School property" defined
Sec. 24.7. "School property" means the following:
(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by:
(A) a school corporation;
(B) an entity that is required to be licensed under IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27;
(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales; or
(D) a federal, state, local, or nonprofit program or service operated to serve, assist, or otherwise benefit children who are at least three (3) years of age and not yet enrolled in kindergarten, including the following:
(i) A Head Start program under 42 U.S.C. 9831 et seq.
(ii) A special education preschool program.
(iii) A developmental child care program for preschool children.
(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1).

Your post isn't entirely accurate either. That section of code was repealed in 2012. The new code that covers it is this. Same wording different IC.

IC 35-31.5-2-285
"School property"
Sec. 285. "School property" means the following:
(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by:
(A) a school corporation;
(B) an entity that is required to be licensed under IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27;
(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales; or
(D) a federal, state, local, or nonprofit program or service operated to serve, assist, or otherwise benefit children who are at least three (3) years of age and not yet enrolled in kindergarten, including the following:
(i) A Head Start program under 42 U.S.C. 9831 et seq.
(ii) A special education preschool program.
(iii) A developmental child care program for preschool children.
(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1).
As added by P.L.114-2012, SEC.67.

I thought a private church school could authorize those that are legally allowed to carry, to carry on school premises. It ad to be authorized by the principal, pastor or ruling body.

Hopefully that hasn't changed. A few years back I printed up some documents for our church with all the IN code about that and had the pastor and carrier sign it.

Actually from rereading the new code. That might not be a go. Unless they are a charter school. Or they are a school resource officer as defined in the IC.,

(2) A person who may legally possess a firearm and who has
been authorized by:
(A) a school board (as defined by IC 20-26-9-4); or
(B) the body that administers a charter school established
under IC 20-24;
to carry a firearm in or on school property.

(4) A person who is a school resource officer, as defined in
IC 20-26-18.2-1.

To clarify for all, as I recall, If the church is running the school strictly as an UNLICENSED ministry program, the GFZ doesnt apply, correct? My family and I are looking for a new church and one of them has a M-F preschool, but they are not state licensed as a school. So they are not covered by IC 35-41-1-24.7 since they are unlicensed?

It doesn't matter if they are licensed or not, per a strict reading of the code. Just if they are required to be licensed. That is for pre-school/daycare purposes. Other schools such as k-12, they are a GFZ unless you meet one of the exceptions.

However you can get permission to carry under IC 35-47-9-1 by whoever OWNS THE PROPERTY . /QUOTE]

Used to be that way, not anymore. That changed in 2012. So if you own a building and rent it out to a daycare. Unless you have permission (and that from reading the IC may not even work) carry is a no go.

(2) A person who may legally possess a firearm and who has
been authorized by:
(A) a school board (as defined by IC 20-26-9-4); or
(B) the body that administers a charter school established
under IC 20-24;
to carry a firearm in or on school property.

(4) A person who is a school resource officer, as defined in
IC 20-26-18.2-1.

 

[mrortega]

I do believe this will be handled by case law some day unless the legislature takes it up and clarifies it. I too go to a church that has a school. My home parish has two separate buildings on the same grounds. But the church I attend most often has the church connected to the school by a short hallway. I carry in church and feel (hope?) that if I'm ever discovered I would have a case that I'm not "in" the school. I don't want to be the test case. But I also refuse to be in a situation where I'm laying on the floor unarmed covering my wife while someone walks around killing people ala Luby's Cafeteria.

 

[BE Mike]

I do believe this will be handled by case law some day unless the legislature takes it up and clarifies it. I too go to a church that has a school. My home parish has two separate buildings on the same grounds. But the church I attend most often has the church connected to the school by a short hallway. I carry in church and feel (hope?) that if I'm ever discovered I would have a case that I'm not "in" the school. I don't want to be the test case. But I also refuse to be in a situation where I'm laying on the floor unarmed covering my wife while someone walks around killing people ala Luby's Cafeteria.

I don't think that I could ever forgive myself, if someone was executed and I had the skill and opportunity to prevent it, but not the tool. Self-defense is a basic human right. Unfortunately I have little faith that if this ever comes before the Indiana legislature that it will clarify the law to our benefit.

 

[mrortega]

I don't think that I could ever forgive myself, if someone was executed and I had the skill and opportunity to prevent it, but not the tool. Self-defense is a basic human right. Unfortunately I have little faith that if this ever comes before the Indiana legislature that it will clarify the law to our benefit.

I think you're right on the legislature. Even our staunchest allies know pushing any kind of gun bill is very difficult because some of their support is marginal - i.e. some legislators are in districts where they have to walk a fine line. I asked Jim Tomes one time about a simple sentence adding the exception of a licensed carrier to the school exceptions and he had a good laugh. Jim is our best friend in the state house and he knows the political reality. So....onward and upward to some lucky stiff who will provide the test case for the attached church. Anyone? Anyone?

 

[ATM]

The prohibition is an infringement. Repeal it.

No further clarification needed.

Do the same with the prohibition on handgun carry.

Then, repeal the rest.

 

[rhino]

The prohibition is an infringement. Repeal it.

No further clarification needed.

Do the same with the prohibition on handgun carry.

Then, repeal the rest.

What he said.

 

[rvb]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I have a question on this that has always bothered me about how this applies to church-run preschools....

Two relevant sections of IC:

[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT,Bold]IC 35-47-9-2
Possession of firearms on school property or a school bus; defense to a prosecution; possession of firearms in a motor vehicle parked
in a school parking lot Sec. 2. (a) A person may not be charged with an offense under this subsection if the person may be charged with an offense described in subsection (c). A person who knowingly or intentionally possesses a firearm:
(1) in or on school property; or
(2) on a school bus;
commits a Level 6 felony.
[/FONT][/FONT]

IC 35-41-1-24.7
"School property" defined
Sec. 24.7. "School property" means the following:
(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by:
(A) a school corporation;
(B) an entity that is required to be licensed under IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27;
(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales; or
(D) a federal, state, local, or nonprofit program or service operated to serve, assist, or otherwise benefit children who are at least three (3) years of age and not yet enrolled in kindergarten, including the following:
(i) A Head Start program under 42 U.S.C. 9831 et seq.
(ii) A special education preschool program.
(iii) A developmental child care program for preschool children.
(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1).

It seems the consensus is that so long as the "preschool" associated with the church is not required to be licensed, it's ok to carry in the church.

But doesn't that ignore sec. 27.4(1)(D) of the definition of school property? Most churches are non-profit, and any "preschool" would fit under line iii, right?

-rvb

 

[eldirector]

The three items listed under 27.4(1)(D) all refer to either Head Start (which is defined very specifically in IC) or programs for kids with "special needs". While "special education" and "developmental child care program" are not defined ANYWHERE in IC, the few times they are mentioned are always in reference to kids with some form of disability.

And, anything that meets the definition of "school" is required to be registered with the State. There are sites (posted up-thread, I believe) that allow you to search or view a list of "schools". If it isn't on the list, it (most likely) is not a school. If it is listed as a "ministry", then it is NOT required to be licensed, so not a school.

YMMV, IANAL, etc...

 

[T.Lex]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I have a question on this that has always bothered me about how this applies to church-run preschools....

Two relevant sections of IC:





It seems the consensus is that so long as the "preschool" associated with the church is not required to be licensed, it's ok to carry in the church.

But doesn't that ignore sec. 27.4(1)(D) of the definition of school property? Most churches are non-profit, and any "preschool" would fit under line iii, right?

-rvb

That's a great observation.

Part of the calculus is whether that same NFP "owns" or "rents" the building that leads off section 1.

For a Catholic church/school, the property is usually owned by the diocese - which is its own entity. The diocese doesn't run the church/school. The local church is usually a separate entity. The local church doesn't own the property, nor does it pay rent. So, the actual property probably isn't "school property."

Hypothetically, let's say there's a local church called First Local Church of God (FLCG). The property is owned by FLCG and the pre-school is run by FLCG. Then, it arguably meets the definition.

But, let's say the pre-school is run by a separate entity, the FLCG Mothers' Ministry (FLCG-MM). FLCG doesn't charge FLCG-MM rent, because it is a ministry. Then, I'm not sure it meets the definition.

Yes, that is a rather technical legal difference. But this kind of thing is why there are so many lawyers. And so many laws.

 

[Cameramonkey]

The good news, is as I recall you may get written permission from the controlling body and carry legally. (school board, parish council, etc) Given recent events, that should be much easier to do.

Our church doesnt have a school and myself and others have always carried. Luckily our new pastor's husband always carries, and both are onboard with a security team. Our first planning meeting is Thursday to organize.

 

[rhino]

The good news, is as I recall you may get written permission from the controlling body and carry legally. (school board, parish council, etc) Given recent events, that should be much easier to do.

Our church doesnt have a school and myself and others have always carried. Luckily our new pastor's husband always carries, and both are onboard with a security team. Our first planning meeting is Thursday to organize.

Which leaves Catholics pretty much out in the cold. The probability of a pastor of a Catholic parish or the Bishop granting such permission is less than your probability of winning the PowerBall.

 

[T.Lex]

Which leaves Catholics pretty much out in the cold. The probability of a pastor of a Catholic parish or the Bishop granting such permission is less than your probability of winning the PowerBall.

I wish I could honestly disagree. But I can't.

But, until that changes, the legal technicality helps.

 

[rhino]

I wish I could honestly disagree. But I can't.

But, until that changes, the legal technicality helps.

Ironically, the Bishop of the Lafayette Diocese is a gun owner and shooter (according to an employee of the Diocese who took a firearms safety class from me when she learned about the Bishop's interest). Still, no way it's going to happen. It's sad that Pope JP II's (Best Pope EVER) opinion on self-defense is not in the minds of these people.

 

[rvb]

The three items listed under 27.4(1)(D) all refer to either Head Start (which is defined very specifically in IC) or programs for kids with "special needs". While "special education" and "developmental child care program" are not defined ANYWHERE in IC, the few times they are mentioned are always in reference to kids with some form of disability.

And, anything that meets the definition of "school" is required to be registered with the State. There are sites (posted up-thread, I believe) that allow you to search or view a list of "schools". If it isn't on the list, it (most likely) is not a school. If it is listed as a "ministry", then it is NOT required to be licensed, so not a school.

lots of assumptions there. is learning colors and ABCs developmental, I would think so. Perusing the code, I also see things like adult development programs, like GED. I don't see disability as an inherent part of definition. Under the definition of "school property," the section I am referring to doesn't use the word "school" it talks about a "nonprofit program or service." I only see "school licensing" applying to sections A, B, and C, not D.

That's a great observation.

Part of the calculus is whether that same NFP "owns" or "rents" the building that leads off section 1.

Interesting take. I'm in the case where the local church owns the property and runs the preschool.

-rvb

 

[T.Lex]

Interesting take. I'm in the case where the local church owns the property and runs the preschool.

There may be an easy way to fix that - a different entity to run the preschool.

 

[rvb]

I'm considering writing the head of our preschool.... It's either 1 of 2 people... Person A I think would authorize me to carry. Person B, hmm, not so sure. So I need to figure out who meets the below definition...

IC 35-47-9-1

Exemptions from chapter
Sec. 1. (a) This chapter does not apply to the following:
...
(2) A person who may legally possess a firearm and who has
been authorized by:
(A) a school board (as defined by IC 20-26-9-4); or
(B) the body that administers a charter school established under IC 20-24;
to carry a firearm in or on school property.

IC 20-26-9-4
Sec. 4. As used in this chapter, "school board" means:
(1) when applicable to a public school of Indiana, the board of school trustees, board of school commissioners, school board of
incorporated towns and cities, and township school trustees; or
(2) when applicable to a school other than a public school, a
person or agency in active charge and management of the
school.

-rvb

 

[T.Lex]

Consider the audience. If it is a jury, then you probably only need one authorization.

[This is not actual legal advice, just speculation.]