Property Taxes - My annual rant

[churchmouse]

I just sent the check in for the fall installment on the rental.

 

[PistolBob]

As someone who taught from 1975 to retiring June 14, 2019 (except for 2 yrs. when moving to IN in 1985), I can give you my observation about the quality (at least in Social Studies).
I taught in the regular classroom for decades (6-12 grades), adult education in the evenings, Summer School and then about 7 yrs in Alternative Education.
My classes were all online (Social Studies) on the High School level.
A teacher in the classroom isn't able to cover all 800 pages in the World or American History book: you have to pick an choose.
The first time I taught about the Roman Empire it took me 6 weeks (supposed to take 2 weeks, or less).
I remember as a student in High School never covering anything past WW1.
Courses online cover everything, up until the last very couple of years (till its updates).
In Social Studies, it works, no shortcuts.
The issue with any online coursework is honesty in taking Quizzes & Tests & Exams: it's easy to cheat.
I bought my own computer program that could monitor each student's screen so I could make sure even from a distance what was on their screen.
Then you have to monitor their cell phones: they are mini-computers.
I think in Math you need a live teacher who can illustrate, translate and make sense out of it (for us non-math people, at least).

Interesting. I have a degree from Ivy Tech that I got entirely online in 2007. I had never taken Trig...did it online, and a few chat sessions with the teacher...end up getting an A. Same thing with the 9 hours of psychology I took...got A's but had some great online classroom interaction with fellow students and teachers....all exams had to be taken at my local public library under the watchful eye of the librarian that just happened to be an Ivy Tech approved proctor. Some exams were written, answered, collected and sent to Ivy tech for grading...some were taken online via the library provided Ivy Tech approved computer. Not allowed to take exams on a non approved PC.

Finished a Assoc Degree in Computer Security in right at 2 years...(I also have a Bachelors degree in Computer Technology from IUPUI circa 1988) got straight A's...if they can teach this old dog via online education...it'll work for almost anyone without learning disabilities.

The tech will only get better and better.

 

[KMaC]

I accept my civic responsibility to contribute to the education fund for the benefit of future society. My objection is to the spending priorities the education machine assigns. I know that priorities are subjective and my priorities aren't likely the same as a parent's with a "nothing is too good for my child" attitude.
I have trouble justifying multi-million dollar sports complexes with weight training rooms that rival an NFL facility, swimming pools, television and radio stations that benefit a relatively small segment of the student body. The spending on these items is disproportionate to the percentage of the student body using them, yet every public high school has them and the administrations consider them essential. Is there a study that predicts a shortage of weather girls if we don't have a television station at every high school?

 

[Lex Concord]

They want to protect their investment. For most, they own over 50% of the house.

this.

 

[Lex Concord]

We absolutely do not need schools operated or controlled by any level of government.

QFT - the current model is a relatively new arrangement in human history.

 

[churchmouse]

I accept my civic responsibility to contribute to the education fund for the benefit of future society. My objection is to the spending priorities the education machine assigns. I know that priorities are subjective and my priorities aren't likely the same as a parent's with a "nothing is too good for my child" attitude.
I have trouble justifying multi-million dollar sports complexes with weight training rooms that rival an NFL facility, swimming pools, television and radio stations that benefit a relatively small segment of the student body. The spending on these items is disproportionate to the percentage of the student body using them, yet every public high school has them and the administrations consider them essential. Is there a study that predicts a shortage of weather girls if we don't have a television station at every high school?

In all of this mad spending people are benefiting. Pockets are being lined. Palms are crossed with silver. The inner circle.

 

[Lex Concord]

I've been away for a few days, and I see that the conversation has (not surprisingly) turned from the immorality of the property tax as a means of collecting taxes to the perceived blessing or curse that is public education.

While property taxes currently fund public education (along with other things), it is not required that they be the source of said funding.

Abolition of property taxes could be done in a way that would be revenue neutral for the institutions they fund. I very much doubt that teachers, librarians, firefighters, police, or others whose funding currently comes from property taxes would care what the source was if it were shifted, so long as the dollars kept flowing.

 

[Lex Concord]

Most folks have the tax paid by the bank, and rolled into their mortgage.

For ALL taxes, I would make them payable only in person, and only in cash. Folks would wake up real quick.

Side note: I write a check twice a year for property taxes, and once a year for income tax. I'd pay cash, but they won't take it.

Fair. I used to pay via escrow with the bank but switched.

I occasionally conflate what I do with what is "normal".

Anyone who knows me knows I am not normal

 

[churchmouse]

I've been away for a few days, and I see that the conversation has (not surprisingly) turned from the immorality of the property tax as a means of collecting taxes to the perceived blessing or curse that is public education.

While property taxes currently fund public education (along with other things), it is not required that they be the source of said funding.

Abolition of property taxes could be done in a way that would be revenue neutral for the institutions they fund. I very much doubt that teachers, librarians, firefighters, police, or others whose funding currently comes from property taxes would care what the source was if it were shifted, so long as the dollars kept flowing.

Truth. Funding e areas of public service listed is a must. My issues is with the runaway spending of the schools.

 

[senork]

I taught in the same high school from 1971 to 2010, I was sure that when I retired, that teacher salaries were paid by the state via the increase in the sales tax to 7% and not the local portion of the property taxes that used to go to the Gen Fund. The only local portions going to schools were to go into accounts for building improvements, debt service, and transportation. Has that changed??? I have read that there is now an Education Fund and an Operation Fund, maybe others, but I don't think that local property taxes go toward salaries. The teachers in our school system have only received raises if they are evaluated as highly effective or effective teachers, and I think that money comes from the state, and not the local property taxes. Please correct me if I am wrong.....

 

[rhino]

Climate change: someone is lying, boldly, for economic gain (same old story: follow the money).

Completely devoid of all political motivation, I believe that your statement is factually true. I observed what could only be a huge pack of lies and overall deceptive practices well before I was aware of any of the political and social implications and connections to the assertion that climate change is primarily a result of human activity.

 

[rhino]

The traditional model doesn't necessarily have to continue to be the default though. A lot of people work from home. No need for "daycare" for a growing number of families. I don't think traditional schools will be eliminated either, as a market choice. But if it were strictly a market choice, eventually I think as society evolves around technology, they would be replaced as the primary model for school. I'm not saying they could or should be replace altogether.

Online is more cost efficient, and provides a comparable education experience, if not better, than most traditional schools. One problem with it, it requires the student to have more focused discipline to make it work, at least for the school my son attended. We had to keep on him to keep up with the work, because there isn't a teacher in the room with him making him do the work. If you're familiar with Blackboard, the system this school used was very similar. You get your instruction, and assignments from there, you work at your own pace, you get individualized instruction from the teacher if you need it, you submit your assignments, the teacher grades it. There's a place to have classroom discussions through chat. But if you don't do the work, you fail. So that model isn't going to work for a lot of students who don't have parents that can really get involved with their kid's learning.

But other models will work. Some have online remote classrooms, where attendance is taken and progress is monitored, either through video, or chatrooms. That's closer to the traditional classroom, but students are in virtual classrooms. That's probably a better model.

I cannot address primary and secondary school delivered online, as I have no experience. I do have experience with post-secondary online education, both as an instructor and as a student. In a lot of cases, the rigor of online courses is less than that of traditional classroom learning. In some cases, it is dramatically so. In addition, a significant fraction of online courses have very little prepared lecture material on video, and rely instead on online versions of the textbook. In my opinion, a lecture component would be be beneficial for most students, yet it is lacking in too many courses. A set of PowerPoint slides with no audio does not a lecture make.

Given that, I think the key element in the success of online education is essentially the same as for traditional classroom learning: the student must invest the time, effort, and commitment to actually learning. That implies long term mastery and understanding of the concepts, not just mimicking and mental regurgitation on assessments in pursuit of a grade.

If a student lacks honor, the opportunities for cheating on most assessments and assignments are legion. This raises a huge issue in my opinion: how can completion of online coursework and degrees be meaningful if there exists such limited tools for assuring that the individual with the scores and the diploma is the same individual who completed the work?

 

[doddg]

Interesting. I have a degree from Ivy Tech that I got entirely online in 2007. I had never taken Trig...did it online, and a few chat sessions with the teacher...end up getting an A. Same thing with the 9 hours of psychology I took...got A's but had some great online classroom interaction with fellow students and teachers....all exams had to be taken at my local public library under the watchful eye of the librarian that just happened to be an Ivy Tech approved proctor. Some exams were written, answered, collected and sent to Ivy tech for grading...some were taken online via the library provided Ivy Tech approved computer. Not allowed to take exams on a non approved PC.
Finished a Assoc Degree in Computer Security in right at 2 years...(I also have a Bachelors degree in Computer Technology from IUPUI circa 1988) got straight A's...if they can teach this old dog via online education...it'll work for almost anyone without learning disabilities.
The tech will only get better and better.

Sounds like it was done right!
I took a couple of independent study courses at IUPUI when I came to this state, one being IN History.
I had to do the same thing in taking tests, writing in those blue test tablets back in 1986 or '87.
Very hard, since there were no shortcuts and everything was covered.
I'd much have rathered to have taken those courses in the classroom; it would have been much easier, but I was working 90 hrs. per week at the St. Vincent Stress Center and just couldn't get to classes.
I am impressed by you getting through Trig online!

 

[ATOMonkey]

I taught in the same high school from 1971 to 2010, I was sure that when I retired, that teacher salaries were paid by the state via the increase in the sales tax to 7% and not the local portion of the property taxes that used to go to the Gen Fund. The only local portions going to schools were to go into accounts for building improvements, debt service, and transportation. Has that changed??? I have read that there is now an Education Fund and an Operation Fund, maybe others, but I don't think that local property taxes go toward salaries. The teachers in our school system have only received raises if they are evaluated as highly effective or effective teachers, and I think that money comes from the state, and not the local property taxes. Please correct me if I am wrong.....

All collected taxes, whether they be property, sales, or income, all go into one big pot. Ear marks and funds and what not are all just accounting mumbo jumo and lies. No such things actually exist, as they would be illegal. Just like Federal Social Security. Anyway... Then each super-nintendo comes along with their bowl and asks for a portion out of the pot. Now, the size of their portion is related to about a hundred different things that may or may not have anything to do with the amount of tax actually collected in their region. The reasoning behind this is that a rural school can't generate nearly enough funding on the backs of the tax payers in their area. So, urban and suburban schools are counted on to fill the gaps. School budgets are submitted, evaluated, and then either approved or sent back for revision.

How that money gets spent is ENTIRELY up to the administration and the school board. The admins actually put together the budget and that budget is then voted on by the school board, who probably has no idea what is actually in it. YMMV.

If the district falls short on funds they can either borrow money through the municipal bond bank, some other lending institution, or by raising a referendum.

The Plainfield Community School Corporation has done the majority of their capital improvements through municipal bonds. This includes the building of a new Taj Ma High School, and another elementary school.

ANOTHER source of funding is Federal grants or payments for low income, ESL, medicaid, etc. School districts like IPS spend far and away more money per student than even Carmel. It is laughably high. It is my assertion that most of that money is misappropriated, but maybe it does take $15,248 to educate an urban youth (WFYI 2018), compared to the $10,576 per student at Carmel (2019).

Further, money is doled out to each school in the district disproportionately per student. Some IPS schools receive as little as about $5,000 per student.

So there it is. Clear as mud.

 

[senork]

Thanks ATO Monkey, you are right Clear as Mud. I know that things have changed regarding schools since I retired from teaching. I taught in a rural school, with students living in ten mile radius of the school building itself, so busing is a common thing. Internet for online courses, the last I heard 83% of the students have internet in the home. Even my internet service is slow by most community standards, and the only way to improve that is to subscribe to a dish, and it is expensive. I wish there were an alternative to school funding at the local level, but I don't know what it would be.

 

[JettaKnight]

I taught in the same high school from 1971 to 2010, I was sure that when I retired, that teacher salaries were paid by the state via the increase in the sales tax to 7% and not the local portion of the property taxes that used to go to the Gen Fund. The only local portions going to schools were to go into accounts for building improvements, debt service, and transportation. Has that changed??? I have read that there is now an Education Fund and an Operation Fund, maybe others, but I don't think that local property taxes go toward salaries. The teachers in our school system have only received raises if they are evaluated as highly effective or effective teachers, and I think that money comes from the state, and not the local property taxes. Please correct me if I am wrong.....

They did change it... My wife tried to explain it, but I was confused. There are clear lines with each pot of money, and a school administration (or school board) doesn't have sole discretion on spending.

 

[amboy49]

As I understand it a large portion of the property tax revenue is designated for school funding. There are currently two resolutions on the ballot this year for Zionsville Community Schools. One of the resolutions extends a resolution that was passed several years ago and is due to expire. According to the proponents the extension is necessary to prevent teacher RIF and to maintain appropriate class size numbers.

The second resolution is designed the cover the cost of construction for a new school building. The new building is needed due to increasing student enrollment (ZCSC claims an annual student increase of 200). Historically Zionsville schools are ranked in the top 3 in the state for academics. This creates and influx of new residents wanting the best education for their children. This, oftentimes, means that if little Johnny or Susie wants a class offering of Thirteenth Century Elizabethan poetry or some other nebulous course ZCSC will make sure it’s offered.

Additionally, the second most cited reason is that the school system state academic ranking is part and parcel of the strong real estate resale market. Last I heard there is nothing required in school funding that is required to help maintain property values. Apparently some tax payers are more than happy to see a raise in their property taxes so they can cash in when they’re ready to sell their home(s).

Zionsville is a wonderful community and it does have a great school system. However, the school administrators, soccer moms, and real estate agents have taken up the crusade to push the two referendums through. I will predict both referendums will pass. We will then be taxed for years to come. The smart money would bet on additional referendums in the future to circumvent the ceiling placed on property tax increases.

To paraphrase ”I never met a tax I didn’t like” certainly applies to the school administration in Zionsville.

 

[ATOMonkey]

They did change it... My wife tried to explain it, but I was confused. There are clear lines with each pot of money, and a school administration (or school board) doesn't have sole discretion on spending.

I wouldn't call them clear. You're more than welcome to sort through all the codes though. IC-20 is all the laws in regards to education. Funding starts in chapter 40. The only place that I've found that specifies direct funding is in the Operations Fund, which is primarily local excise tax, but transfers from other funds are allowed as well.

Instruction is supposed to be paid from the general fund, and the law allows transfers to and from nearly all funds within the corporation.

The grants paid to each corporation by the state come from the general treasury, so there really is no way to ear-mark state taxes for certain expenses, except in your intentions. Well, let me clarify, there is no current law that states "revenue from tax levy XXXX shall be distributed through State Tuition Grants, for use in the general fund in support of instructional education." Once it goes into the treasury, it can go pretty much anywhere. Local taxes are another story.

If you can find anything different I'd be interested in reading it.

 

[rhino]

I wouldn't call them clear. You're more than welcome to sort through all the codes though. IC-20 is all the laws in regards to education. Funding starts in chapter 40. The only place that I've found that specifies direct funding is in the Operations Fund, which is primarily local excise tax, but transfers from other funds are allowed as well.

Instruction is supposed to be paid from the general fund, and the law allows transfers to and from nearly all funds within the corporation.

The grants paid to each corporation by the state come from the general treasury, so there really is no way to ear-mark state taxes for certain expenses, except in your intentions. Well, let me clarify, there is no current law that states "revenue from tax levy XXXX shall be distributed through State Tuition Grants, for use in the general fund in support of instructional education." Once it goes into the treasury, it can go pretty much anywhere. Local taxes are another story.

If you can find anything different I'd be interested in reading it.

I have no doubt that you are correct, but the school corporations don't always follow the law, nor do they always tell the truth about what is actually happening. The worst that can happen is that someone corrects them.

 

[ATOMonkey]

I have no doubt that you are correct, but the school corporations don't always follow the law, nor do they always tell the truth about what is actually happening. The worst that can happen is that someone corrects them.

Oh absolutely, there is a mile between should and shall.

The big picture is that Education is the state's largest expense (by a LOT) and that most revenue is from property taxes... By and large, property taxes pay for education.