Masks-no discussion needed. Just vote and see where we really are.

[T.Lex]

You certainly did not. Had you, I would not have responded as I did.

Quoting for posterity.

Past those 3 members are ~14x more people who are rejecting science, at least at some level. At least the way the question was worded.

Together, that's about 40% of posting INGOers that are having difficulty seeing the bigger picture about how disease spreads. Both the literal disease and the big government disease.

And so... do you now agree about the part about rejecting the science, at least at some level... as in, rejecting the studies that show benefits of masking?

Edit:
Ok, post-edit

Went back and read it. I will agree on that point.

So you agree that saying masks are "useless" means those people are rejecting science, at least at some level? Or do you just agree that that's what I said?

 

[johny5]

So you agree that saying masks are "useless" means those people are rejecting science, at least at some level? Or do you just agree that that's what I said?

Check the latest edit

 

[Rookie]

Question for the people advocating masks...

Do you believe that masks are going to effectively end kung-flu? If no, what's your solution? Wait for a vaccine? I have little to zero faith in that happening, so what's the other options?

 

[JettaKnight]

OK that is a bit more clearly stated but read back and see that I agree with others that if the Gov. stopped the and there was solid science on this I would lean another way but there is none of that.
If masks truly work lets open the economy back up and get to living our lives and stop twisting up peoples minds with fear. If they truly work.

This I respect and agree with.

But no, Gov. has an agenda here and it is to stifle the Economy for a well defined end game. You either see this or you do not. Again, pick your poison. Read and believe what fits your life and belief's/feelings. I can not alter your thoughts or belief's any more than you can alter mine.

This, eh, I don't see any reasoning for this apart from mere conjecture.

I am still of a mind this entire fiasco has stolen 6 months of my life and I am pi$$ed off about it. The terrorists need to be in school. They need to interact with other kids.

And I'm back to agreeing with you!

EDIT: CM, my wife was in a fit last night: "Those teachers need to stop whining and do their job! If they can't accept that, then quit and we'll find someone who will!!"

She sounded like Reagan v. PATCO.

 

[4651feeder]

Would you "mask advocates" be content if everyone wore a mask or would your next goal then be that everyone wore a mask of minimum quality meeting your scientific approval ?

 

[JettaKnight]

Question for the people advocating masks...

Do you believe that masks are going to effectively end kung-flu? If no, what's your solution? Wait for a vaccine? I have little to zero faith in that happening, so what's the other options?

You have little faith in a vaccine being developed?
Curious about that...


I don't believe anyone thinks that masks can end kung-flu. The best they can do is mitigate it's spread so that it's manageable, and at what is determined to be an acceptable level (now that's another discussion).

 

[Rookie]

You have little faith in a vaccine being developed?
Curious about that...


I don't believe anyone thinks that masks can end kung-flu. The best they can do is mitigate it's spread so that it's manageable, and at what is determined to be an acceptable level (now that's another discussion).

What are you curious about?

 

[T.Lex]

Went back and read it. I will agree on that point. However, it does still not represent a 'rejection of science', at any level. The question of an entire populace wearing masks to ward off infections/viruses is something that has been little explored by scientists. Why? Because mandates of this type have not been implemented on this scale before.

We do not know the unintended consequences of large-scale mask use, nor have we proven to any satisfactory degree the benefits. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

Well, at least I've been relieved of the "hubris" label.

It does still constitute a rejection of science at some level - that actual science that shows there IS a benefit to mask use. That is, from what is available on the internet, there is no study or finding in a peer reviewed journal that says no mask and any kind of mask are equivalent. To say that there is no benefit - which ostensibly includes a nominal benefit - rejects that science that shows there is at least a nominal benefit.

Now, is there argument or skepticism about "how much" benefit cloth masks have? Sure. But that's a concession that there is some benefit.

There actually is a paradigm for large scale mask use - Asian countries. Several of them have quite a bit of experience with large-scale mask use. Again, there has not been anything reflecting a downside to that. Granted, it was not mandated (as far as I know), but a reflection of what was socially acceptable. They didn't need to mandate it, alot of people just did it.

Again, this narrow focus is not on mandates for a large scale, but on individual mask use. The statement being polled is "I believe masks are useless" - which is an individual determination. A positive response rejects the science that shows at least a nominal benefit.

It makes sense that an individual benefit scales up. I do not know of any research proving that out, but that kinda doesn't matter for purposes of the poll.

(BTW, while people get us confused sometimes, I am not foszoe.)

Check the latest edit

 

[JettaKnight]

Would you "mask advocates" be content if everyone wore a mask or would your next goal then be that everyone wore a mask of minimum quality meeting your scientific approval ?

I think it's unrealistic to set any sort of standard on the wearer.

What are you curious about?

Why you think none of the vaccines in development will work. Do you think a vaccine can't be made? Or can't be distributed, or...

What are you dubious about?

 

[T.Lex]

You have little faith in a vaccine being developed?

I am actually skeptical of that, too.

As I understand it, none of the family of coronavirus have an effective vaccine. That doesn't bode well.

Now, just in the last week, it seems like new science is bringing us different techniques for "building" a vaccine for this unique coronavirus. So... I'm a solid maybe that there'll be a vaccine. But, it'll basically be new technology, and I'm not keen on being an early adopter of that kind of thing.

I do think effective treatment options will outpace vaccine development. We'll find better ways to treat it rather than coming up with a new way to prevent it.

That's just my take on it.

 

[Rookie]

I think it's unrealistic to set any sort of standard on the wearer.




Why you think none of the vaccines in development will work. Do you think a vaccine can't be made? Or can't be distributed, or...

What are you dubious about?

I don't think they will come up with an effective vaccine any time soon if ever. So my question is, what's our other options? Walk around, afraid of our own shadow or maybe allow our bodies the opportunity to do what they're supposed to do and try to fight it. I choose option B. If I get it, I get it. If I die, so be it. I don't have a death wish, but I'm not interested in going through life afraid of the boogeyman.

 

[lovemachine]

This I respect and agree with.


This, eh, I don't see any reasoning for this apart from mere conjecture.



And I'm back to agreeing with you!

EDIT: CM, my wife was in a fit last night: "Those teachers need to stop whining and do their job! If they can't accept that, then quit and we'll find someone who will!!"

She sounded like Reagan v. PATCO.

Teachers want to go back to work and do their jobs.

 

[rvb]

This I respect and agree with.


This, eh, I don't see any reasoning for this apart from mere conjecture.



And I'm back to agreeing with you!

EDIT: CM, my wife was in a fit last night: "Those teachers need to stop whining and do their job! If they can't accept that, then quit and we'll find someone who will!!"

She sounded like Reagan v. PATCO.

my wife is a preschool teacher. for a moment there I thought you were quoting her...
-rvb

 

[T.Lex]

Would you "mask advocates" be content if everyone wore a mask or would your next goal then be that everyone wore a mask of minimum quality meeting your scientific approval ?

I'm advocating that everyone accept the consequences of their actions (or inactions).

I am not advocating for a .gov sponsored mandate that would be the conceptual successor to requirements for seat belt and motorcycle helmet use.

 

[rvb]

Why you think none of the vaccines in development will work. Do you think a vaccine can't be made? Or can't be distributed, or...

I am not holding my breath. Common cold? No vaccine. HIV? No vaccine. Flu? Yes, BUT it evolves and they “guess” at the strain each year. They had one they were working on for SARS1 but the virus died out and so did interest, and they are using that as a starting point for This SARS2. Polio took like a decade to develop. So it’s worth hoping for, but it’s folly to plan on it, e.g. “we’ll end the lockdowns when there is a vaccine.” Because it’s possible that day will never come, or could be many years. I’m more concerned they’ll rush a vaccine without adequate testing and do more harm than good.

-rvb

 

[rvb]

Teachers want to go back to work and do their jobs.

some do. Some believe it’s not safe to return to the classrooms.

 

[JettaKnight]

Teachers want to go back to work and do their jobs.

I wish that was completely true.

Insider knowledge has told me otherwise.

 

[johny5]

The statement being polled is "I believe masks are useless" - which is an individual determination. A positive response rejects the science that shows at least a nominal benefit.

Is it? I see three statements being polled, including: I believe government should mandate the wearing of masks

 

[T.Lex]

Is it? I see three statements being polled, including: I believe government should mandate the wearing of masks

Reading issue again?

That's the 3rd option. The second one is... and this is copy/paste, "I believe masks are useless" and for the sake of completeness, the first option is, "I believe masks are beneficial but should be voluntary."

Those that choose #2 are, in essence, stating their belief that masks are "useless," when there is scientific evidence to suggest there is at least a nominal benefit.

 

[lovemachine]

some do. Some believe it’s not safe to return to the classrooms.

I wish that was completely true.

Insider knowledge has told me otherwise.

Must just be my area then. Everyone here is tired of this, and WANT to return back to school.