How is this stealing from keltec? It doesn't fold.
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☆ New Smith & Wesson Response PCC
- Thread starter DadSmith
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How is this stealing from keltec? It doesn't fold.
They already stole that one I was referring to the multi mag system
The Keltec system used on the Sub 2k requires that the frame be swapped to change from Glock mags to another brand of mag.
If you have the multi-mag it will accept mags from 7 different manufacturers, but not Glock msgs.
The Ruger PC Carbine, the Henry Homesteader and the S&W Response require a change of just the magwell to switch magazine compatibility, but don't offer the flexibility of the Keltec multi-mag frame.
Magazine type can also be changed in other AR9s with Colt and Glock being the common ones.
Keltec references:
How to use different magazines in a SUB2000 (Multi-Mag)
The SUB2000 Multi-Mag can use a wide range of common pistol magazines, like those from Sig, and Smith & Wesson.
support.keltecweapons.com
KEL-TEC SUB-2000 Grip Frame & Magazine Options Explained
KEL TEC SUB 2000 Grip Options and How they Determine your KEL-TEC SUB-2000 Magazine Options. Finally, the KEL TEC SUB-2000 Multi-Mag Insert Options are explained here as well in full detail. Get the consolidated list of KEL TEC SUB 2000 Magazine Options available.
www.mcarbo.com
Blowback operated firearms were patented in the late 1800s, everyone since then has been innovating, not stealing.
Sounds like you need one of these:
CMMG Radially-delayed blowback 9mm on a standard lower with the "Endomag" conversions. Exact same feel, controls, and footprint of a .223 AR. It's also not straight-blowback, and because it uses a rotating bolt and carrier setup similar to a regular gas-operated AR instead of a solid bolt like the blowback designs, you get the out-of-battery protection that was designed into the AR platform from the beginning, which the blowback guns don't have.
My first 9mm AR was a PSA Glock-Mag straight-blowback job, and after it blew up a couple cases in my face, I got rid of it. The only issue I've had with the CMMG is having to replace an ejector spring about 1000 rounds in. The recoil impulse is softer, I can drop it on any lower, and the mags have fed flawlessly.
As to this latest S&W offering...meh. Get back to me when they come out with something gas operated or at least delayed blowback and then maybe I'll be interested.
I am curious FS, what are the issues with blowback operated rifles like the ones that folks are talking about in this thread?
Not all blowback rifles have serious issues. A well-designed one can work reliably. But just the nature of the design requires balancing the recoil forces of the ammo with your spring and buffer. The action is not locked, and the combined force of the buffer spring, buffer inertia, and hammer spring must hold the bolt closed long enough for the bullet to leave the barrel, otherwise the action will open prematurely and you'll get ruptured cases or significant blowby into the face of the shooter. As you can imagine, balancing that action to a wide variety of different ammo can be difficult, and it also requires a heavier buffer and bolt assembly than a traditional AR-15, so all that reciprocating mass gets transferred to the shooter under recoil. In my experience, a straight blowback AR recoils similarly to a gas-operated .223 rifle, which kind of negates some of the purpose of shooting a pistol caliber in the first place.
The CMMG system adds a rotating bolt into that mix. It looks a lot like a traditional AR bolt and carrier, but it lacks a gas system, and the action is not locked because the bolt lugs are angled to slide along the lugs of the receiver extension under recoil. Even though it's not locked, this rotation adds more tolerance into the blowback action because it allows more time for the bullet to leave the barrel before the action opens.
The other thing the rotating bolt does is restore the out of battery protection built into the original AR design. The solid bolt of most blowback ARs does nothing to prevent the firing pin from striking a primer if the hammer follows the bolt home or some other issue causes the pin to protrude forward of the breach face. The camming system of the bolt inside the carrier of a gas-operated AR (and in the CMMG system) has to collapse into the closed position for the firing pin to be able to protrude beyond the breach face. So there's no way for the firing pin to strike the primer unless the gun is in battery.
If you take your AR bolt carrier out and extend the bolt to its forward position, then push on the back of the firing pin you'll see what I'm talking about. It won't even reach the front of the breach face. Collapse the bolt to its closed position, push on the pin, and the tip will protrude.
Here is a site with a lot of good info regarding blowback 9mm ARs:
Here is an article that includes discussion of out battery issues:
What 9mm buffer do I need??? (and spring)
Let’s look at a little quick history and then get to what works best for most typical 9mm ARs. NOTE: None of this applies to the CMMG Banshee. It uses a different operating system. This infor…
blowback9.wordpress.com
OOB issues are made more apparent when firing the rifle fast, as in competition.
I have 2 Ruger PC Carbines and an M&P FPC. All have been 100% reliable. I've also owned a PSA AR9 and a Marlin Camp 9.
The S&W Response interests me because S&W did a great job of engineering the FPC to both operate well and have reduced recoil compared to the other PCCs I've owned. It would be nice if they did as well with the response.
At the site I linked he discusses alternatives to locking bolt guns like the CMMG including hydraulic buffers, a new buffer by KAK industries, and a roller delayed buffer by Maxim.
I’m just not a fan of trying to adopt all kinds of different chamberings in a platform not originally designed for it. Personally I don’t find it appealing to use pistol rounds in an ARish platform. I would rather see a design purpose built for the job from the ground up and not adapted from something else. That’s not to say different cartridges shouldn’t be used in a platform but I like to keep the case length relatively similar. Gets back to just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.Sounds like you need one of these:
CMMG Radially-delayed blowback 9mm on a standard lower with the "Endomag" conversions. Exact same feel, controls, and footprint of a .223 AR. It's also not straight-blowback, and because it uses a rotating bolt and carrier setup similar to a regular gas-operated AR instead of a solid bolt like the blowback designs, you get the out-of-battery protection that was designed into the AR platform from the beginning, which the blowback guns don't have.
My first 9mm AR was a PSA Glock-Mag straight-blowback job, and after it blew up a couple cases in my face, I got rid of it. The only issue I've had with the CMMG is having to replace an ejector spring about 1000 rounds in. The recoil impulse is softer, I can drop it on any lower, and the mags have fed flawlessly.
As to this latest S&W offering...meh. Get back to me when they come out with something gas operated or at least delayed blowback and then maybe I'll be interested.
I definitely agree in principal. What a 9mm AR gives me is the ability to practice on steel targets with a rifle that has almost identical ergonomics and similar recoil characteristics to my patrol rifle, and it can also be shot in pistol-caliber-only bays at my gun club where I can't use my 5.56 rifle. It's a training tool (and a really fun one)...for serious work, I'll take a 5.56 every time.
Looking forward to a range review.
How much do the bolt and buffer weigh? Is the buffer solid or does it have internal weights?
Enjoy the new rifle.
Ill weigh them tonight when I get home and check to see if the buffer has moving weights or is solid
Thanks!
Buffer is solid, no loose weights shaking around. Due to the length is a little tricky to remove. Weights are in the pics
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Total of 24.3 ounces for the Response.
The Ruger PC Carbine is 23.7 ounces with a dead blow weight in the bolt.
The M&P FPC is 26.2 ounces.
22-24 ounces is what seems to work for an AR9.
I'm surprised that there are no moving weights in the buffer, but no judgements until I shoot one.
The buffer is 5 inches long which is an inch longer than many AR9 buffer and 1 3/4 inches longer than a standard AR-15 buffer.
I've read that both the upper and lower are proprietary so no swapping the entire upper or lower to another AR.
@Simon6101 - thanks for your investigative efforts!
The Ruger PC Carbine is 23.7 ounces with a dead blow weight in the bolt.
The M&P FPC is 26.2 ounces.
22-24 ounces is what seems to work for an AR9.
I'm surprised that there are no moving weights in the buffer, but no judgements until I shoot one.
The buffer is 5 inches long which is an inch longer than many AR9 buffer and 1 3/4 inches longer than a standard AR-15 buffer.
I've read that both the upper and lower are proprietary so no swapping the entire upper or lower to another AR.
@Simon6101 - thanks for your investigative efforts!
The one unusual thing I've noticed so far is the rear takedown pin isn't completely round like an AR. It has a flat spot on the bottom.
I was a little disappointed in the magwell design. It isn't a solid piece that the mag slides into. It is hollow with a divider molded into it.
Overall it feels well built and comfortable.
I took it into work today(Quartermaster) and let several of the gun guys for the dept. Handle it. It got good responses(LOL) and everyone seemed to like its weight and feel.
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Tagged because I want to see Simon’s opinions.
I handled one of these at the shop. Two opinions 1) yuck it’s cheesy plastic and PCCs are stupid, carry a rifle and 2) this seems pretty cool, lightweight, takes different mags, trigger OK, bolt has a decent looking extractor. To be honest it peaked my interest as I like PCCs and enjoyed my AR9 before I sold it to a friend. I didn’t care for the plastic but I did like the weight.
I handled one of these at the shop. Two opinions 1) yuck it’s cheesy plastic and PCCs are stupid, carry a rifle and 2) this seems pretty cool, lightweight, takes different mags, trigger OK, bolt has a decent looking extractor. To be honest it peaked my interest as I like PCCs and enjoyed my AR9 before I sold it to a friend. I didn’t care for the plastic but I did like the weight.
I'm still trying to find time to get to the range when the weather is at least Sunny on my days off. Hopefully this Sunday or Monday
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