Was searching to build my first AR or find a used one so I went to the showing after extensively researching. All the used ones were more than new and all the new ones we more expensive than they are directly from MFR online... Do they just expect you to negotiate? Seems like a lot of vendors are rude (don't have any time to talk) as well, is this really a gun store culture?
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1500 not really a good deal?
- Thread starter TacticalM4
- Start date
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You can generally haggle with people at a gun show. There are deals to find, but used isn't always the best way to look for a gun. Kind of like most of the INGO classifieds, people don't want to lose any money out of what they've put into the gun. As a buyer we don't see why paying as much for their used is better than buying one new, but at least you can save yourself from paying tax that way. Other times they ask more depending on what accessories they've put onto the firearm such as optics, foregrip, etc.
If I buy a used firearm I'll always offer before paying relatively what I'd pay for it new. If they don't want to go down any then they really don't want to sell it. It's all in how you handle it, but I have found some vendors too busy to do much talking unless you show them the cash right up front. Which if I'm willing to buy I usually have it out and ready to show them I mean business. Even if I just want to talk, green gets their attention and will let you fondle whatever you want.
If I buy a used firearm I'll always offer before paying relatively what I'd pay for it new. If they don't want to go down any then they really don't want to sell it. It's all in how you handle it, but I have found some vendors too busy to do much talking unless you show them the cash right up front. Which if I'm willing to buy I usually have it out and ready to show them I mean business. Even if I just want to talk, green gets their attention and will let you fondle whatever you want.
To my surprise, some people don't realize that. Some guy tried to sell a used gun that he didn't even bother to clean and dust, for more money than it costs new in store. And that's before the MIR on that model, which he probably didn't know about, but as the prospective buyer, I sure as hell did.
So I gave him a reasonable offer (even generous, IMHO, especially because he didn't even bother cleaning, or even getting the dust off the ****ing thing) and I guess he didn't like that because he immediately started insulting me and saying hurtful things.
Some people just don't understand supply & demand. So, here's a PSA: The price point of whatever you're trying to sell isn't determined by how much you paid for it, (unless you're a monopoly or we live in a supply-side economy, but that's another story,) but how much it's worth to us, the buyers or "the market". I don't give a rat's ass about how you're barely breaking even on it; if you got ripped off on buying it, don't try to pass on the rippage by trying to rip me off even more.
You just have to take these things with a grain of salt. If you can't get a gun for what you feel it is worth, you just need to move on.
I got what I thought were two decent deals at the show. You just have to know what you are looking for and what you are willing to pay.
For example, there were two Beretta AL391 Urika Sportings at the show. One pretty nice one was for $999 and one dirty one with no case was $575 and I walked out with the dirty one for $500. It came with 5 chokes, a choke wrench and a lot of caked on residue.
I took it home, cleaned it up and it actually looks better than the other one. I never used the cases on the Berettas I have owned anyway, so I think I came out ahead.
I got what I thought were two decent deals at the show. You just have to know what you are looking for and what you are willing to pay.
For example, there were two Beretta AL391 Urika Sportings at the show. One pretty nice one was for $999 and one dirty one with no case was $575 and I walked out with the dirty one for $500. It came with 5 chokes, a choke wrench and a lot of caked on residue.
I took it home, cleaned it up and it actually looks better than the other one. I never used the cases on the Berettas I have owned anyway, so I think I came out ahead.
Sad thing about something like the 1500 is it's shoulder to shoulder. You get alot of aholes come thru that wears on a vendors nerves and patience.
Granted some vendors are proud of their prices. Real proud.
And it's a 2 way street, you get alot of vendors who are just plain out aholes regardless.
If someones trying to sell a gun thats not been cleaned, thats a flag to me, on how that seller has treated this firearm all along. Kind of like buying a used car.
Granted some vendors are proud of their prices. Real proud.
And it's a 2 way street, you get alot of vendors who are just plain out aholes regardless.
If someones trying to sell a gun thats not been cleaned, thats a flag to me, on how that seller has treated this firearm all along. Kind of like buying a used car.
I agree to a point. If you are very familiar with the firearm and know what to look for as far as broken/imoperable firearms, you are in a better situation.
As far as this gun, it had to have been treated fairly decent, because if 391's go uncleaned for too long, they cease to function all together. Also the wood and metal finish were very good, so it hadn't been thrown around. Just dirty.
I went to a "custom" AR guy and the head guy was eating his lunch I guess so one of his employees was talking to me. I had just purchased my stripped lower which I think qualified me. The sales guy didn't know pricing on anything and kept deferring to the owner. So they told me $65 for a lower parts kit, $65 for a stock, and $400 for a 4 rail assembled M4 upper, but they would give me everything for $650... A little quick math means they increased the price $120 for the package. I asked what else they were including and after a lot of back and forth, the owner said he didn't have a BCG in the displayed upper... ok. That was after he pulled out a calculator, asked me why I had to be a "pain in his ass" and proceeded to ramble off a bunch of numbers that conveniently added up to about $900. Now, this $900 was for equipment which didn't have a name brand or at least they couldn't produce it. He was still willing to "discount it" to $650.
The whole thing was kind of a big turn off. Everyone kept tell me "he was the best". Oh well. I still have my brand new Del-Ton stripped lower.
The whole thing was kind of a big turn off. Everyone kept tell me "he was the best". Oh well. I still have my brand new Del-Ton stripped lower.
The 1500 is a strange animal. All the tension is because of the poor venue. Its way over crowed and wears on the nerves of both customers and vendors. Yes deals can be had at the 1500 but they are few and far in between. If you can fight the crowd, put up with stressed out vendors and keep your cool then you might score a deal if you are lucky enough to come across one.
The prospect of finding a deal or just having a decent time at the 1500 are not enough to get me to go though the hell of the show. I prefer to deal with INGO members in the classifieds or gun shops one on one.
The prospect of finding a deal or just having a decent time at the 1500 are not enough to get me to go though the hell of the show. I prefer to deal with INGO members in the classifieds or gun shops one on one.
It's more of a day trip for me. I live close enough that the whole day costs me about $20 and I get to check out what people and vendors are selling. My first 1500 ever I made the mistake of buying before researching and learned I overpaid on a 1911 A-1, and now I research everything before I buy. Expensive learning experience I guess.
Confusion
If "the best" asks a customer why they had to be a "pain in his ass", I'd hate to deal with the worst.
You may use this answer next time, if you wish. "I do not mean to be a pain in your ass. Or your customer". You may add whatever insults you choose reference his sex habits or his heritage. Sounds to me like he's earned them.
If "the best" asks a customer why they had to be a "pain in his ass", I'd hate to deal with the worst.
You may use this answer next time, if you wish. "I do not mean to be a pain in your ass. Or your customer". You may add whatever insults you choose reference his sex habits or his heritage. Sounds to me like he's earned them.
GSPBirdDog
Sharpshooter
I thought it was one of the better one's i have been to........and GEMTECH WAS THERE
You can't go to the 1500 "looking for a deal" you'll never find it. You have to go looking for a specific item and knowing what a "deal" would be. My deal this weekend was a new (used) deer rifle. I went early and it was the only thing I looked for until I found it. The dealer was not too bad but was a little pissy with me. I didn't let his attitude ruin my find. Got a scope for a reasonable price and a good deal on some Hornaday lever revolution too. Those from a dealer that was really helpful. A buddy of mine found a new S&W .357 for at least $75 cheaper than I have ever seen it retail. Don't expect 50% off, but the deals are there if you look.
chraland51
Expert
I could not make this 1500. Was the guy who was selling the Ameriqual MREs there again? Is he usually there. I want to get some more MREs even if I have to pay more than I did for Shibumiseeker's quantity purchase. If the guy was at the 1500, does anyone remember what he was selling a case for?
jblomenberg16
Grandmaster
Interesting comments thus far, and let me offer some thoughts / perspective.
First, what we see at the Indy 1500 is a good example of open market capitalism. Many different vendors offering many different products, some of which are substitutes for each other. While supply and demand will generally set the price, the sellers have free reign to price where they wish. Likewise, consumers have multiple selections to chose from and have some leverage to negotiate, as the goods are generally not necessities.
Second, there is a unique mix of vendors at the show. Some are avid collectors, so aren't really there as much to "sell" as they are to "buy or trade." Others are hobbyists, who aren't really there so much to make a living selling, but instead to see if they can make a good sell and raise some funds to buy something else. Finally you have actual businesses that operate retail stores as well. Those generally have the best stock, as well as the room to negotiate deals a bit. Depending on the vendor's business situation and business plan, they may be willing to make a smaller margin and sell more items, or they might be looking to hold out and make a larger margin on fewer items.
Third, the customer base is extremely mixed. Again, it ranges from long time collectors, to casual hobbiests and enthusiasts, to first time buyers. Each has their own knowledge of the goods they are looking at, and in turn has a different understanding on what a good deal is. Many of the first time buyers may have never set foot in an actual retail shop, and view the gun show as the best way to see a large variety of items, and then select the deal they want.
Forth is product positioning. Again, keep in mind the wide variety of vendors and customers. There are vendors to cater to each type of customer coming through the doors there. Some have built up an $800 WASR AK with all the latest tacticool goodies from the NC-Star catalog, in hopes to attrack a buyer looking for a tacticool weapon, but with little or knowledge of what actually is useful, and what is just extra stuff hanging off the rifle. Other vendors are selling stock items with a small mark-up to make a few $$$ of profit. You also have custom builders selling very high quality items at a premium price. In each group you just have to be a savvy consumer and know what you are looking for.
My final point is about the show vs. the internet. One of the great things about internet commerce is that it has generally benefited the consumer as it makes for much more competitive pricing due to significantly lower overhead costs. But so far, nobody has ever been able to completely recreate the same experience a buyer gets by touching and feeling the actual item they will be buying. So, a gun show provides a little different buying experience than the web. Some people use the gun show as the "try before you buy" avenue to handle items they have looked at online, but want to see and touch in person before making the buy. Others see the show as a safer way to buy, and have less chance of a bad deal on the internet.
In all of this, the mantra of "Caveat Emptor - Let the buyer beware" should be strictly followed. There are a lot of good, honest, legitimate vendors at the 1500, many of which are INGO advertisers, that work very hard to make their business a success. These folks usually have the better customer service, and typically have very competitive prices. If you barter with them and go below their selling price, they'll typically say no thank you, and politely end the dealing.
Other vendors are there to make as much of a profit as they can, no matter what. I'm not going to say they are trying to rip people off, but they are going to take advantage of those customers who don't do their homework. Like the guy selling military surplus items that had a can of "Original 30-06 armor piercing ammo." What caught my eye wasn't the "armor piercing" but how amazingly clean the rounds were. All of the surplus AP I've seen has the oxidation and corrosion one would expect from 50+ year old ammo. This stuff was gleaming bright, and was the level of shine I like to have on my brass after final tumbling before reloading. I also noticed a strange cannelure above the case neck, that look a lot like a 150 gr. 7.62nato pull down. (Those that reload 30-06 to simulate M2 ball know what I mean...) After inspection, it appeared to me that these were his own reloads, and were painted with a black tip to look like AP. The only double cannelure military 30-06 I knew of was some of the war time tracers when they changed the type of tracer material. Now, I might be wrong (and if that vendor is reading my post, I appologize if my conclusion was inaccurate). They might have actually be factory new ammo and I just didn't realize it. But given the knowledge I had on 30-06 AP, I wasn't willing to spend $1 / round for what I thought was suspect. I was more than happy to buy M1 Garand canvass muzzle covers from him as they met my needs and were a price I felt was fair.
So, in all of that, yes, there are probably some dishonest vendors out there looking to take advantage of the uninformed, and that's true in just about any consumer business. But the majority of folks there are working hard to make a living or to enjoy their hobby, and willing to deal a bit. But at the end of the day, it comes down to being an informed customer, and knowing what you are buying, and what that item is worth to you. If the price is higher than you want to pay, you can walk away from the deal at anytime without any reprocussions. If you saw it for cheaper at the next table down, then be prepared for the vendor to tell you to go buy that one, and don't be offended by it. And, if you get something that you think was a good deal, be happy about it as you were rewarded for your handy work.
First, what we see at the Indy 1500 is a good example of open market capitalism. Many different vendors offering many different products, some of which are substitutes for each other. While supply and demand will generally set the price, the sellers have free reign to price where they wish. Likewise, consumers have multiple selections to chose from and have some leverage to negotiate, as the goods are generally not necessities.
Second, there is a unique mix of vendors at the show. Some are avid collectors, so aren't really there as much to "sell" as they are to "buy or trade." Others are hobbyists, who aren't really there so much to make a living selling, but instead to see if they can make a good sell and raise some funds to buy something else. Finally you have actual businesses that operate retail stores as well. Those generally have the best stock, as well as the room to negotiate deals a bit. Depending on the vendor's business situation and business plan, they may be willing to make a smaller margin and sell more items, or they might be looking to hold out and make a larger margin on fewer items.
Third, the customer base is extremely mixed. Again, it ranges from long time collectors, to casual hobbiests and enthusiasts, to first time buyers. Each has their own knowledge of the goods they are looking at, and in turn has a different understanding on what a good deal is. Many of the first time buyers may have never set foot in an actual retail shop, and view the gun show as the best way to see a large variety of items, and then select the deal they want.
Forth is product positioning. Again, keep in mind the wide variety of vendors and customers. There are vendors to cater to each type of customer coming through the doors there. Some have built up an $800 WASR AK with all the latest tacticool goodies from the NC-Star catalog, in hopes to attrack a buyer looking for a tacticool weapon, but with little or knowledge of what actually is useful, and what is just extra stuff hanging off the rifle. Other vendors are selling stock items with a small mark-up to make a few $$$ of profit. You also have custom builders selling very high quality items at a premium price. In each group you just have to be a savvy consumer and know what you are looking for.
My final point is about the show vs. the internet. One of the great things about internet commerce is that it has generally benefited the consumer as it makes for much more competitive pricing due to significantly lower overhead costs. But so far, nobody has ever been able to completely recreate the same experience a buyer gets by touching and feeling the actual item they will be buying. So, a gun show provides a little different buying experience than the web. Some people use the gun show as the "try before you buy" avenue to handle items they have looked at online, but want to see and touch in person before making the buy. Others see the show as a safer way to buy, and have less chance of a bad deal on the internet.
In all of this, the mantra of "Caveat Emptor - Let the buyer beware" should be strictly followed. There are a lot of good, honest, legitimate vendors at the 1500, many of which are INGO advertisers, that work very hard to make their business a success. These folks usually have the better customer service, and typically have very competitive prices. If you barter with them and go below their selling price, they'll typically say no thank you, and politely end the dealing.
Other vendors are there to make as much of a profit as they can, no matter what. I'm not going to say they are trying to rip people off, but they are going to take advantage of those customers who don't do their homework. Like the guy selling military surplus items that had a can of "Original 30-06 armor piercing ammo." What caught my eye wasn't the "armor piercing" but how amazingly clean the rounds were. All of the surplus AP I've seen has the oxidation and corrosion one would expect from 50+ year old ammo. This stuff was gleaming bright, and was the level of shine I like to have on my brass after final tumbling before reloading. I also noticed a strange cannelure above the case neck, that look a lot like a 150 gr. 7.62nato pull down. (Those that reload 30-06 to simulate M2 ball know what I mean...) After inspection, it appeared to me that these were his own reloads, and were painted with a black tip to look like AP. The only double cannelure military 30-06 I knew of was some of the war time tracers when they changed the type of tracer material. Now, I might be wrong (and if that vendor is reading my post, I appologize if my conclusion was inaccurate). They might have actually be factory new ammo and I just didn't realize it. But given the knowledge I had on 30-06 AP, I wasn't willing to spend $1 / round for what I thought was suspect. I was more than happy to buy M1 Garand canvass muzzle covers from him as they met my needs and were a price I felt was fair.
So, in all of that, yes, there are probably some dishonest vendors out there looking to take advantage of the uninformed, and that's true in just about any consumer business. But the majority of folks there are working hard to make a living or to enjoy their hobby, and willing to deal a bit. But at the end of the day, it comes down to being an informed customer, and knowing what you are buying, and what that item is worth to you. If the price is higher than you want to pay, you can walk away from the deal at anytime without any reprocussions. If you saw it for cheaper at the next table down, then be prepared for the vendor to tell you to go buy that one, and don't be offended by it. And, if you get something that you think was a good deal, be happy about it as you were rewarded for your handy work.
Who was the vendor?
If "the best" asks a customer why they had to be a "pain in his ass", I'd hate to deal with the worst.
You may use this answer next time, if you wish. "I do not mean to be a pain in your ass. Or your customer". You may add whatever insults you choose reference his sex habits or his heritage. Sounds to me like he's earned them.
Yeah, it doesn't help that I was there with another guy that I brought that just kept telling me to "just buy it". I waited until the guys are the booth were done talking, thanked them and then told them I will be looking elsewhere. They were shocked.
Still pretty stoked about building an AR though!
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