$2000 to spend on a 1911

[mbills2223]

I'm so glad I/we got in before that.

My WC isn't a safe queen, it's on me all day every day except when I'm sleeping at which point it's on the night stand with a 10 round mag inserted and a 10 round spare next to it . When I carry it's 8+1 and 8.

One of the many guns I have on my "When you graduate and get a sign on bonus" list... Sigh.

 

[MikeDVB]

One of the many guns I have on my "When you graduate and get a sign on bonus" list... Sigh.

I don't think this WC will ever get sold, hopefully it will stay in the family for longer than I'm alive.

 

[blueboxer]

Personally, I can't stomach paying 2K for a single handgun. A rifle maybe, but not a handgun. I say that because I know an $800 1911 will outshoot me, so paying $1200 more for "fit and finish" isn't worth it to me. I would rather buy a 1-1.4K 1911 and spend the rest on ammo/accessories

Having said that, if I were you I would do a full on custom shop build from Springfield Armory. You get a lifetime warranty and some flat out awesome craftsmanship. The wait list for those guns is pretty long but wow are they great. Plus, it's totally "yours" which to me is cooler than buying a Wilson etc where anyone else can buy the exact same thing.

 

[MikeDVB]

Personally, I can't stomach paying 2K for a single handgun. A rifle maybe, but not a handgun.

Why is that, because a rifle is bigger?

I say that because I know an $800 1911 will outshoot me, so paying $1200 more for "fit and finish" isn't worth it to me.

The thing to keep in mind here is that most rifles and modern handguns are designed with production lines in mind. They take into account tolerance stacking and it's built into the design meaning most firearms you pick up will work out of the box without issues.

The 1911 is a gun that does not lend itself well to production line manufacturing by unskilled workers. While all 50+ parts may be within their individual specifications - when you begin assembling all of these parts from bins you can very easily end up with too many parts on one side or the other of the tolerance ranges and, as a result, a gun that does not function well or reliably.

If you want a 1911 I would suggest one that is hand fitted by an experienced gun smith and not one that's assembled on a manufacturing line by unskilled workers (read: not the $500~1500 guns).

I would rather buy a 1-1.4K 1911 and spend the rest on ammo/accessories

If I did this, I would hope it runs well out of the box (i.e. all of the tolerances play nicely together and there aren't issues).

To make a quick example - my Wilson Combat has 500 flawless rounds through it without a single FTF, FTE, or any other issues. I challenge you to pick any production-line 1911 and do this exact thing. You may get lucky but chances are you won't.

Having said that, if I were you I would do a full on custom shop build from Springfield Armory.

Custom shop is where it's at for a 1911 - hand fitting by gun smiths. It's worth the money if you're going to get a 1911. If you don't want to pay the money for a 1911 then you're gambling on getting one that will work well out of the box. I'd personally rather spend $2k+ up-front and know it will work than $1000 and end up with something that may or may not be reliable. If you don't want to spend the money on a custom shop gun - then do yourself a favor and get a Glock or a Sig or any of the other modern production-line guns.

Wilson etc where anyone else can buy the exact same thing.

You do realize that *all* Wilson Combat guns are custom, right? Sure, you can go to a gun store and pick one up - but if you order it from Wilson Combat it will be to your specifications (i.e. custom).

I think, perhaps, you should do a bit more research on Wilson Combat before making such a generalization.

Now for the disclaimer:
If you have a production-line 1911 and it is flawless good for you! I really don't care. I didn't say it was impossible, just that it was less likely than a modern gun design that was designed with mass production in-mind. When the 1911 was designed and manufactured in the early 1900's every one was built by hand by gunsmiths - this is not the case today. I love 1911's and I love my 1911, so don't misunderstand my post as bashing Mr. Browning, the design, or the 1911 itself.

 

[jaschutz79]

For 2k you can't buy a new WC. Maybe pick up a well used CQB for 2400.

And 500 rds flawless rounds is hardly a true test of reliability. But I do agree that you will generally have better luck with a quality custom gun.

 

[MikeDVB]

For 2k you can't buy a new WC. Maybe pick up a well used CQB for 2400.

Never said you can get a WC for $2k, if I did - feel free to point it out by quoting me, and I'll be happy to apologize and make it clear I was mistaken.

And 500 rds flawless rounds is hardly a true test of reliability. But I do agree that you will generally have better luck with a quality custom gun.

I never said it was a 'test of reliability' but simply that most production guns are not going to be able to do it. Sure, some will - most will not.

Now if I said, I've fired 50k rounds through my Wilson Combat flawlessly then that would, imho, be a definitive statement of reliability. I haven't hit that point and, as such, cannot make such a claim.

The point was simple - if your 1911 can't run 500 rounds without issue out of the box on ball ammo, it's not reliable. I would go so far as to say if you can't run a full magazine through your 1911 without failure, then it's not reliable.

All of that said - the problem could be as simple as the crappy magazine that came with your gun. I am not saying you can't get a good production-line unskilled-worker-assembled 1911, I'm just saying it's not as likely as one would hope.

 

[jaschutz79]

Never said you can get a WC for $2k, if I did - feel free to point it out by quoting me, and I'll be happy to apologize and make it clear I was mistaken.

I never said it was a 'test of reliability' but simply that most production guns are not going to be able to do it. Sure, some will - most will not.

Now if I said, I've fired 50k rounds through my Wilson Combat flawlessly then that would, imho, be a definitive statement of reliability. I haven't hit that point and, as such, cannot make such a claim.

The point was simple - if your 1911 can't run 500 rounds without issue out of the box on ball ammo, it's not reliable. I would go so far as to say if you can't run a full magazine through your 1911 without failure, then it's not reliable.

All of that said - the problem could be as simple as the crappy magazine that came with your gun. I am not saying you can't get a good production-line unskilled-worker-assembled 1911, I'm just saying it's not as likely as one would hope.

First the OP was asking about a 2k 1911. Which I'm pointing out that your WC is not. So what are you adding to help the OP by going on and on about you WC.

Second, I agree with your reliability standards. What i don't agree on is that you have 500 or less rds through a gun that you "carry every day". But that is your choice not mine.

Third...who says I have problems with my mags? My factory mags from DW have been through 3k flawless rds in 3 months. And to say that production line guns are assembled by unskilled workers is just plain ignorant. I recommended the DW Valor because they are hand assembled, excellent fix and finish and extremely accurate. For 2k they are hard to touch.

 

[pack-indy]

Ed Brown Kobra/Carry and be happy. I'll sell you my TRP for $2000

 

[MikeDVB]

First the OP was asking about a 2k 1911. Which I'm pointing out that your WC is not. So what are you adding to help the OP by going on and on about you WC.

Last I checked this was a discussion forum where we're allowed to share our thoughts and opinions. If I was wrong, by all means, do feel free to issue me an infraction... Oh wait, you're not a moderator .

Second, I agree with your reliability standards. What i don't agree on is that you have 500 or less rds through a gun that you "carry every day". But that is your choice not mine.

That is correct, my choice indeed. You're also making the assumption that I don't have a secondary back-up gun that I trust as well, although that's an entirely different topic for discussion and outside the scope of this thread.

Third...who says I have problems with my mags?

If you can point out where I definitively said that your magazines were crap, go for it. Most magazines that come with production guns are junk and that is my opinion. You're welcome to disagree - if your production-gun-magazines work flawlessly for you, then good for you!

My factory mags from DW have been through 3k flawless rds in 3 months.

I'm glad to hear it, PM me your address and I'll be happy to FedEx you a cookie and yes, I'm quite serious. I'll take pictures (censoring your personal information) of the entire process and post them in the break room for you as well.

And to say that production line guns are assembled by unskilled workers is just plain ignorant.

If you look at what I said, I am talking about non-gunsmiths (i.e. unskilled factory/production workers). There are guns built by skilled workers, and they work well but I wouldn't call them 'production line' guns.

I recommended the DW Valor because they are hand assembled

By hand assembled, you mean by skilled workers? That wouldn't be your standard production-line gun and that would explain why it works well for you . My WC wasn't assembled by a *single* gunsmith either, but those that did assemble it are skilled gunsmiths.

excellent fix and finish and extremely accurate. For 2k they are hard to touch.

Indeed, and at $2k it's not a production-line gun, or you got a terrible deal. Last I checked, DW guns are not off of your standard production line as you would find a $500~1200 1911.

 

[jaschutz79]

Well then my opinion is this to the OP....for 2k DW Valor, Les Baer, Springfield TRP would be an excellent choice. Find some leather,mags and ammo that work for you and get out and shoot your gun.

 

[MikeDVB]

Well then my opinion is this to the OP....for 2k DW Valor, Les Baer, Springfield TRP would be an excellent choice. Find some leather,mags and ammo that work for you and get out and shoot your gun.

Yep, and nothing wrong with that, most of what I've seen in this thread is good advice. I looked at several myself including DW, EB, LB, Springfield, and Kimber but settled on WC.

 

[seedubs1]

Man, mikedvb is defensive.

Bottom line, you do not have to spend $2-4,000 for an out of the box reliable 1911.

Tolerance stack up, yada, yada..... Engineers (I'm one of them) work to make sure the total stack up is within acceptable limits normally for 3 (or 6 in some cases) sigma variation for a production line like process. And there are fail safes to limit the amount of product that gets through the line that is out of spec. Will some get to the end user? Yes, but they are not a frequent occurrence, and the few that do make it out to customers are the ones you'll for sure hear complained about. Remember, people are more likely to complain about a lemon than to praise something good, and for each one complained about, there's thousands of good, well functioning, examples out there.

The vast majority of 1911's in the $700+ category will run very reliably. For example, a lot of the sa loaded/ra, s&w, sti, etc... Offerings are getting high praise from owners on reliability, function, fit, and finish.

If you have the cash, and want to spend extra, by all means, go for it. The fit and finish of some of the uber high end 1911's is great. Would I pay that kind of price? No, I think it's nuts, but hey, it's not my money. Buy what makes YOU happy. But again, don't let some of these guys tell you that you need a $4000 Wilson Combat to have a great reliable 1911.

 

[seedubs1]

Why is that, because a rifle is bigger?

No.....it's because some are shooting out to 800 yards with 30 cal rifles. You aren't doing that with a pistol. The level of tolerance required for those kinds of shots warrant that kind of price. The tolerance required to shoot a pistol at 25 yards, and the subsequent cost, in my opinion, should be much less.

 

[MikeDVB]

Man, mikedvb is defensive.

Nah, I'm happy to stand up and admit I'm wrong when I am but you better have some evidence .

Bottom line, you do not have to spend $2-4,000 for an out of the box reliable 1911.

You don't have to, no.

Tolerance stack up, yada, yada..... Engineers (I'm one of them) work to make sure the total stack up is within acceptable limits normally for 3 (or 6 in some cases) sigma variation for a production line like process.

This works fine for something designed with the production line in mind. The 1911 was designed to be assembled by gunsmiths and not on a production line, tolerance stacking wasn't an issue as everything was hand-fitted.

And there are fail safes to limit the amount of product that gets through the line that is out of spec.

That's the thing, you can have a gun from a production line where 100% of it is within it's specifications but the sum of the total is out of spec or you have rigorous testing in place to catch those that would not function well and reject them during QA.

Tolerance analysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tolerance Stack

Again, if the design takes this into account it's not an issue. If the design doesn't take it into account, you can (and likely will) run into issues unless you can build your parts each with such tight specifications that the sum of those tolerances couldn't possibly put you out of spec.

Will some get to the end user? Yes, but they are not a frequent occurrence, and the few that do make it out to customers are the ones you'll for sure hear complained about. Remember, people are more likely to complain about a lemon than to praise something good, and for each one complained about, there's thousands of good, well functioning, examples out there.

Sure, I didn't say every production-line 1911 was crap, but merely that you're much more likely to get a production-line gun that doesn't function 100% than you are a hand-fit gun. If you argue with this, you're arguing with logic but you're welcome to argue.

The vast majority of 1911's in the $700+ category will run very reliably. For example, a lot of the sa loaded/ra, s&w, sti, etc... Offerings are getting high praise from owners on reliability, function, fit, and finish.

As with any generalization, there are certainly going to be exceptions. That said, I would challenge you to get a hand-fit gun by an experienced gun smith that didn't function properly. Sure, I am sure there are some (there's an exception to everything) but there are certainly more production-line guns that don't function out of the box than there are hand-fitted guns.

But again, don't let some of these guys tell you that you need a $4000 Wilson Combat to have a great reliable 1911.

I don't remember saying the word need anywhere, but simply that it's what I did.

 

[jaschutz79]

No.....it's because some are shooting out to 800 yards with 30 cal rifles. You aren't doing that with a pistol. The level of tolerance required for those kinds of shots warrant that kind of price. The tolerance required to shoot a pistol at 25 yards, and the subsequent cost, in my opinion, should be much less.

From someone that shoots at both distances....I can tell you a custom pistol shooting sub 1" groups requires close tolerances and high levels of craftsmanship the same as a rifle that can shoot sub MOA at 800.

 

[MikeDVB]

No.....it's because some are shooting out to 800 yards with 30 cal rifles. You aren't doing that with a pistol. The level of tolerance required for those kinds of shots warrant that kind of price. The tolerance required to shoot a pistol at 25 yards, and the subsequent cost, in my opinion, should be much less.

So the further it will shoot, the more you will pay? In that case, I got an amazing deal on my .22 LR Marlin as it's exceedingly more accurate than my $2700 pistol at 100 yards and less than 1/10th the price.

I don't know, it may have something to do with the longer barrel and the scope... Man, still, such an amazing deal .

 

[CB45]

Everyone has an opinion. Buy the one built for your intended purpose.

Buy that one, shoot it until something breaks, fix, and repeat.

IMO
Action Sports = STI or custom build
Bullseye = Les Baer / High end Wilson Combat or Ed Brown / Custom Build
Range use = anything else
S. D. = anything that works

 

[longbarrel]

2 Kimbers.

 

[seedubs1]

This works fine for something designed with the production line in mind. The 1911 was designed to be assembled by gunsmiths and not on a production line, tolerance stacking wasn't an issue as everything was hand-fitted.

That's the thing, you can have a gun from a production line where 100% of it is within it's specifications but the sum of the total is out of spec or you have rigorous testing in place to catch those that would not function well and reject them during QA.

Tolerance analysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tolerance Stack

Again, if the design takes this into account it's not an issue. If the design doesn't take it into account, you can (and likely will) run into issues unless you can build your parts each with such tight specifications that the sum of those tolerances couldn't possibly put you out of spec.

Hence why I said "tolerance stack up" and not "tolerance on an individual part." If you think that companies like sa, s&w, sti, colt, etc... Are just relying on individual part tolerances, and are assembling them all willy nilly, you're nuts.

And thanks for the link to what tolerances areagain, I'm an engineer, and I work with tolerances and stack up on a daily basis. Now, if you want to talk with me about the benefits of a 3 sigma vs a 6 sigma stack up, etc... Then, we can have an educational conversation.

 

[blueboxer]

Why is that, because a rifle is bigger?

The thing to keep in mind here is that most rifles and modern handguns are designed with production lines in mind. They take into account tolerance stacking and it's built into the design meaning most firearms you pick up will work out of the box without issues.

The 1911 is a gun that does not lend itself well to production line manufacturing by unskilled workers. While all 50+ parts may be within their individual specifications - when you begin assembling all of these parts from bins you can very easily end up with too many parts on one side or the other of the tolerance ranges and, as a result, a gun that does not function well or reliably.

If you want a 1911 I would suggest one that is hand fitted by an experienced gun smith and not one that's assembled on a manufacturing line by unskilled workers (read: not the $500~1500 guns).

If I did this, I would hope it runs well out of the box (i.e. all of the tolerances play nicely together and there aren't issues).

To make a quick example - my Wilson Combat has 500 flawless rounds through it without a single FTF, FTE, or any other issues. I challenge you to pick any production-line 1911 and do this exact thing. You may get lucky but chances are you won't.

Custom shop is where it's at for a 1911 - hand fitting by gun smiths. It's worth the money if you're going to get a 1911. If you don't want to pay the money for a 1911 then you're gambling on getting one that will work well out of the box. I'd personally rather spend $2k+ up-front and know it will work than $1000 and end up with something that may or may not be reliable. If you don't want to spend the money on a custom shop gun - then do yourself a favor and get a Glock or a Sig or any of the other modern production-line guns.

You do realize that *all* Wilson Combat guns are custom, right? Sure, you can go to a gun store and pick one up - but if you order it from Wilson Combat it will be to your specifications (i.e. custom).

I think, perhaps, you should do a bit more research on Wilson Combat before making such a generalization.

Now for the disclaimer:
If you have a production-line 1911 and it is flawless good for you! I really don't care. I didn't say it was impossible, just that it was less likely than a modern gun design that was designed with mass production in-mind. When the 1911 was designed and manufactured in the early 1900's every one was built by hand by gunsmiths - this is not the case today. I love 1911's and I love my 1911, so don't misunderstand my post as bashing Mr. Browning, the design, or the 1911 itself.

Alright, first of all I love your Wilson! Looks great, and I'm sure it shoots great as well. Wasn't bashing Wilson's quality or degrading their reputation--clearly Wilson Combat makes some of the best 1911's out there. As to the 1911 history lesson, spot on. It really is a design that came out of an era where products were put together differently than they are today.

My comment about not wanting to spend 2K on a handgun is based on this: what additional benefit am I getting for my money? Simple cost/benefit ratio. For example: when you jump from a Springfield GI to a Loaded model (btw, I'm using Springfield just because I'm familiar with their lineup. Plenty of great brands out there), you get quite a bit for your extra cash. Fit is better, you get front slide serrations, an aluminum three hole trigger, a fitted beavertail, a combat hammer, night sights, and so on. That's the difference between a roughly $600 1911 and a roughly $800 1911 from Springfield. When you jump from the Loaded to the TRP, say $800-$1300 (pre-madness), you get front strap checkering, a magwell, an armory kote finish, a better carry treatment for sharp edges, and a tighter and smoother slide to frame fit. But, as you'll notice, the price jump was much steeper. That's the name of the game with 1911's, and lots of other products. How much more "performance" so to speak, am I getting for my money?

For me personally, I draw the line somewhere around 1.4k, although that's an arbitrary and by no means inflexible price point. For me I start running pretty thin on benefit and pretty high on cost right around there, which is why I pick that price point as my own cutoff. That was my response to the OP's question. Doesn't mean other responses are wrong or that people who buy Wilson's, Baer's, Nighthawk's etc are wasting money--not at all. You earn it, you spend it how you want. My answer is my opinion, and that's all.

As to the comment about 1K-1.5K 1911's having questionable build quality or reliability...I'll leave that mostly alone. There is an absolute mountain of information indicating that some spectacular 1911's can be had for that kind of cash (not to say that it's impossible for lemons to exist at that level--or at a more expensive level). Again IMHO I would buy with confidence in that cost bracket from certain companies since I think the cost/benefit ratio plateaus somewhere in there.

No.....it's because some are shooting out to 800 yards with 30 cal rifles. You aren't doing that with a pistol. The level of tolerance required for those kinds of shots warrant that kind of price. The tolerance required to shoot a pistol at 25 yards, and the subsequent cost, in my opinion, should be much less.

Exactly. This is a big aspect of what I'm getting at as well. If you live in Montana and need a really nice precision rifle for elk hunting at extended ranges, you need to pay. If you're on a long distance shooting team taking 800 yard shots as mentioned here, you need to pay. The cost of nice glass alone for these rifles is sky high. So in terms of a cost benefit ratio, I'm getting more for my money when I spend 3K on a rifle than I do when I spend 3K on a handgun.

Just my thoughts people, just my thoughts