$2000 to spend on a 1911

[Cmustang]

Kimber crimson ultra carry II is like a Lamborghini in your hand!!! Love mine

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

Again, if the design takes this into account it's not an issue. If the design doesn't take it into account, you can (and likely will) run into issues unless you can build your parts each with such tight specifications that the sum of those tolerances couldn't possibly put you out of spec.

It is not the design that has to take it into account... it is the process of assembly.

An extremely loose design may make a weapon function with sloppy tolerances - an SKS/AK would be a great example - and these designs are extremely simple to produce in volumes without as much production design. That being said, even an object with very tight tolerances can be produced effectively on a production line, if done correctly.

As time progresses, and equipment and assembly procedures evolve, we can create things within a tighter spec - and in some instances even match parts without the aid of a human. This is the evolution of production, and does not simply revolve around how the firearm was originally designed.

I have yet to find a line of production 1911s that repeatedly come out as tight as the custom sort produced by the big three - but that does not mean the design is the only factor.

 

[lucky4034]

I'd buy a taurus for $600 and take the other $1400 and snag a M1A

 

[dtkw]

I have a Les Baer Custom, it's the best 1911 I have owned, even the range master was impressed how well it shot.

 

[SERparacord]

Food for thought on carry guns/aluminum frames

ED Brown

The Kobra Carry is now available in an aluminum frame version. Aluminum has one major advantage, and a few disadvantages. The major advantage is the lighter weight, being half a pound lighter than the steel version. This weight advantage cannot be over-valued for those who carry frequently.
Our aluminum frame is made from 7075, the strongest aluminum alloy available and the same material used in M-16/AR-15 assault rifle receivers. The tensile strength is more than adequate for the durability requirements. However, no aluminum is as abrasive resistant as steel because it is slightly softer on the surface. This means service life will be somewhat reduced, and the frame is easier to damage.
A steel version might be expected to last many thousands of rounds of shooting. An aluminum frame will also last thousands of rounds, but certainly not as many as steel. As always, the life will depend on many factors such as load strength, maintenance, lubrication, etc. A carry gun is generally expected to be shot enough to assure familiarization with the weapon and then is carried most of it's life. Occasional practice is fine, but if you plan on a high volume of shooting, you would be much better served with a steel frame gun. If you mainly plan on carrying the gun and shooting it occasionally, you will find the aluminum is a blessing on your hip. Just keep in mind that the cosmetic finish can be damaged much easier than a steel gun. Shooting with a ring on could cosmetically damage the finish. Getting even mildly aggressive with a mag change will cosmetically damage the inside of the mag well. One just needs to be more careful with aluminum. This is the trade-off for lighter weight.
Normally, the feed-ramp might be damaged just by hollow-point rounds impacting it repeatedly, but not with an Ed Brown. We have solved this particular problem by designing a steel insert for the feed-ramp. Now hollow point or solid nose ammo hits the steel insert and never touches the aluminum frame.
The bottom line: if you intend to carry the gun a lot, and not use it for your "daily shooter", the aluminum version is for you. Otherwise, stick with the steel version.



http://www.edbrown.com/kobracarrylw.htm

 

[Mos Eisley]

I'm more of a "value" type of guy, so if I had $2 grand that I just had to spend on a 1911, I'd get 2 of them. A full size Ruger and the new Commander model Ruger. They will do anything that I need a 1911 to do, and are solid, well built American made pistols.

I understand the market for high end guns, just like the market for anything else high end. But at the end of the day, a $2500 custom shop 1911 will not do anything for me that a sub $1000 1911 won't do.

 

[wtfd661]

Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special

 

[MikeDVB]

Hence why I said "tolerance stack up" and not "tolerance on an individual part." If you think that companies like sa, s&w, sti, colt, etc... Are just relying on individual part tolerances, and are assembling them all willy nilly, you're nuts.

I would hope they either have very tight tolerances per-part to the point that even in a worst case you'd have a functioning gun but the fact is, some of their guns won't function well out of the box and need the attention of a gun smith. I would also like to think they would bin their individual parts based upon their tolerances (i.e. this set of bins will make a well-functioning gun, this set of bins will make another well-functioning gun on the other side of the tolerance, etc). Do they do this? Honestly? I don't know.

If you feel a $500~800 production-line 1911 is a good bet, go for it. I'm not telling anybody not to do it any more than I'm saying to spend $5k on one.

And thanks for the link to what tolerances areagain, I'm an engineer, and I work with tolerances and stack up on a daily basis. Now, if you want to talk with me about the benefits of a 3 sigma vs a 6 sigma stack up, etc... Then, we can have an educational conversation.

Just because I quoted you, does not mean that you are the only one that can see the post. As I am sure you already know, not everybody on this forum is an engineer.

Alright, first of all I love your Wilson! Looks great, and I'm sure it shoots great as well.

Thanks, hoping to get a bit more wear on it - at first I was irritated but now I actually like that you can tell it's been handled/fired/carried/used.

Wasn't bashing Wilson's quality or degrading their reputation--clearly Wilson Combat makes some of the best 1911's out there.

Just making sure we're all clear that they're not production line guns, at all. They're all hand-fit.

As to the 1911 history lesson, spot on. It really is a design that came out of an era where products were put together differently than they are today.

It's too bad things aren't how they used to be.

My comment about not wanting to spend 2K on a handgun is based on this: what additional benefit am I getting for my money? Simple cost/benefit ratio. For example: when you jump from a Springfield GI to a Loaded model (btw, I'm using Springfield just because I'm familiar with their lineup. Plenty of great brands out there), you get quite a bit for your extra cash. Fit is better, you get front slide serrations, an aluminum three hole trigger, a fitted beavertail, a combat hammer, night sights, and so on. That's the difference between a roughly $600 1911 and a roughly $800 1911 from Springfield. When you jump from the Loaded to the TRP, say $800-$1300 (pre-madness), you get front strap checkering, a magwell, an armory kote finish, a better carry treatment for sharp edges, and a tighter and smoother slide to frame fit. But, as you'll notice, the price jump was much steeper. That's the name of the game with 1911's, and lots of other products. How much more "performance" so to speak, am I getting for my money?

Honestly, so long as the parts aren't so cheap they break without reason - i.e. where it counts - slide stop, thumb safety, etc... If you get a $500 1911 that works flawlessly that's great! If I felt I could pick up a 1911 for $500 that would be reliable and wouldn't need any attention from a gunsmith to make it reliable (i.e. without putting time and money into it) then I would have done that myself.

For me personally, I draw the line somewhere around 1.4k

I draw the line on the lower end where you get out of production-line guns and into hand-fit guns. There are certainly cheaper hand-fit guns than Wilson Combat, however, I couldn't find a 1911 that really piqued my interest that was hand-fit. They all had (imho) terrible grips that looked stupid or they were stainless. I am not a fan of stainless and I am not a fan of wood or other 'lavish' grips.

although that's an arbitrary and by no means inflexible price point. For me I start running pretty thin on benefit and pretty high on cost right around there, which is why I pick that price point as my own cutoff.

Indeed - my buddy picked up a Tactical RIA 1911 and he loves it - I've never put him down for it. He's had about 1 FTF and 1 FTE per magazine, however, I think it's due to his magazines as it's always the first and the last round (FTF, and FTE in that order). He lives in Vegas, or I'd let him try some of my mags to see.

That was my response to the OP's question. Doesn't mean other responses are wrong or that people who buy Wilson's, Baer's, Nighthawk's etc are wasting money--not at all. You earn it, you spend it how you want. My answer is my opinion, and that's all.

Exactly - if I want to buy a Ferrari - most here would see that as a tremendous waste of money but if I have the money, and I want it, everybody else can **** off .

As to the comment about 1K-1.5K 1911's having questionable build quality or reliability...I'll leave that mostly alone. There is an absolute mountain of information indicating that some spectacular 1911's can be had for that kind of cash (not to say that it's impossible for lemons to exist at that level--or at a more expensive level). Again IMHO I would buy with confidence in that cost bracket from certain companies since I think the cost/benefit ratio plateaus somewhere in there.

It all depends on the part tolerances and assembly. I wouldn't say it's impossible to get a non-hand-fit gun that worked out of the box even with a crappy manufacturer (even broken clocks get it right twice a day) but it's less likely. The issue with tighter tolerances and better assembly processes is that they cost more money and take more time. This is why a $1500 1911 is (in general) going to be more likely to work well than a $500 1911 assuming the price isn't arbitrarily higher due to the name/brand or other non-manufacturing related reasons.

It is not the design that has to take it into account... it is the process of assembly.

The more complicated and time consuming the process and the tighter the tolerances the more expensive the process... If this weren't the case every 1911 even production-line 1911s would be flawless and work perfectly with no QA failures and none making it out of the factory that don't run reliably.

That said, are you really going to say that a gun with 50+ parts designed in the early 1911s to be built and assembled by skilled craftsmen is something that lends itself to high-speed high-quantity production-line manufacturing? Maybe manufacturing has improved since I was last in the industry 5 years ago...

An extremely loose design may make a weapon function with sloppy tolerances - an SKS/AK would be a great example - and these designs are extremely simple to produce in volumes without as much production design. That being said, even an object with very tight tolerances can be produced effectively on a production line, if done correctly.

Read: if they spend the money to do it right. The more expensive the process, the more expensive the end-product.

As time progresses, and equipment and assembly procedures evolve, we can create things within a tighter spec - and in some instances even match parts without the aid of a human. This is the evolution of production, and does not simply revolve around how the firearm was originally designed.

I wouldn't say we're quite yet to the point where tolerances can be 0.0001" on every part on a $500~1500 gun on a production line, although I'm sure it will happen.

Sure, you can probably build a manufacturing line that could do this so long as the instruments were accurate enough to measure to this degree but it's going to cost a lot. That said - if your machines that *make* the parts aren't this accurate then you're going to be tossing a lot of parts that are outside of tolerances before you even get to assembly - read: more expensive.

I have yet to find a line of production 1911s that repeatedly come out as tight as the custom sort produced by the big three - but that does not mean the design is the only factor.

The design isn't the only factor, but it is the first thing that comes into account. If you were to sit down and design an all-new gun from scratch with the production-line in mind you would certainly build your tolerances around what you can do during your manufacturing process reliably with as little discarded/failed parts as possible while also meeting your manufacturing goals/quotas at a price you feel you can sell your product. If any of these are out of their scope (price, difficulty in manufacturing, tolerances, etc) you're not going to hit your goals.

 

[ssdoug]

Springfield TRP.

 

[melensdad]

Springfield TRP.

But if you are going to get a premium gun wouldn't you want an American made gun with American parts?

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

The more complicated and time consuming the process and the tighter the tolerances the more expensive the process... If this weren't the case every 1911 even production-line 1911s would be flawless and work perfectly with no QA failures and none making it out of the factory that don't run reliably.

That said, are you really going to say that a gun with 50+ parts designed in the early 1911s to be built and assembled by skilled craftsmen is something that lends itself to high-speed high-quantity production-line manufacturing? Maybe manufacturing has improved since I was last in the industry 5 years ago...

Read: if they spend the money to do it right. The more expensive the process, the more expensive the end-product.

I wouldn't say we're quite yet to the point where tolerances can be 0.0001" on every part on a $500~1500 gun on a production line, although I'm sure it will happen.

Sure, you can probably build a manufacturing line that could do this so long as the instruments were accurate enough to measure to this degree but it's going to cost a lot. That said - if your machines that *make* the parts aren't this accurate then you're going to be tossing a lot of parts that are outside of tolerances before you even get to assembly - read: more expensive.

The design isn't the only factor, but it is the first thing that comes into account. If you were to sit down and design an all-new gun from scratch with the production-line in mind you would certainly build your tolerances around what you can do during your manufacturing process reliably with as little discarded/failed parts as possible while also meeting your manufacturing goals/quotas at a price you feel you can sell your product. If any of these are out of their scope (price, difficulty in manufacturing, tolerances, etc) you're not going to hit your goals.

More expensive of a process, sure... until innovation brings about better parts at a lower cost.... Then you compare said process to custom hand fitting, and it is not quite as expensive.

A good example would be milspec assembled 1911s. You just could not produce as many quality 1911s in the early 1900s dollar for dollar as you can today.... and the steel is better....

The design is a big factor, and that is not to be overlooked.... I just find it silly that people completely overlook innovation and production design when they make a point about a specific design requiring finer tolerances.

Will it take more cost to produce a quality 1911 over a crap shoot QA nightmare? Sure... but that should not be equated with the inability to do so utilizing a production line.

The lack of necessity comes from customers demanding sub $800 1911s without as much weight on quality in that price range.

See, it isn't that I disagree with what you are saying... it is just that I keep hearing that same point regurgitated as gospel while the other half is completely ignored.

 

[huckeby]

Wish I had $2,000 to spend on a 1911. Would come away with at least 2 for that price though.

 

[blueboxer]

But if you are going to get a premium gun wouldn't you want an American made gun with American parts?

Just fyi, the TRP is made in America. Fully. No Imbel frame on those guns like most of the GI/Mil Spec/Loaded models Springfield makes. Buy an MC Operator, Lightweight Operator and up and you are good to go if 100% American made is your preference.

Thanks, hoping to get a bit more wear on it - at first I was irritated but now I actually like that you can tell it's been handled/fired/carried/used.

I draw the line on the lower end where you get out of production-line guns and into hand-fit guns. There are certainly cheaper hand-fit guns than Wilson Combat, however, I couldn't find a 1911 that really piqued my interest that was hand-fit. They all had (imho) terrible grips that looked stupid or they were stainless. I am not a fan of stainless and I am not a fan of wood or other 'lavish' grips.

Exactly - if I want to buy a Ferrari - most here would see that as a tremendous waste of money but if I have the money, and I want it, everybody else can **** off .

No lie, the gun that got me into 1911's was a center spread in a Combat Handguns magazine from around 2002. It was a worn Wilson Combat 1911...and it was sexy as hell! As long as its honest wear and not things like idiot scratches I'm all for the beat up look.

And the poor looking grips bother me too. They are essentially the rims if you will, of the 1911. In some ways they can make or break the look! And I see what you mean. I just drew my line where many small parts are hand fitted.

In any case, the OP and all of us should buy what we want! Of course we all have opinions about what is "best" but in the end you have to like what you buy, and it has to work for YOU. Period.

 

[Mitchell0481]

Wilson Combat, Les Baer, or Ed Brown.

Among those three, it would be really hard to make a bad choice.

These

 

[Tombs]

Nighthawk if I had 2k for a 1911. That is what I wanted when I bought my kimber... Have not had the best luck with my kimber. Lots of feed issues.

Parker

Not to refute you, because in every experience I've had with kimbers, they need work out of the box to be squared away.

But, it's not that hard to get them to run, you just need to learn a bit about the 1911, and how to properly diagnose issues. I don't believe in warranty work, I'll just get parts from a company that knows how to make them right the first time. Had lots of issues with some of the thinner/lighter slide locks on new kimbers. Replace them with edbrown hardcore ones and they tend to run flawless. After that just cleaning up some stuff here and there, and you'll be running 200gr SWCs with swiss watch reliability.

Also, if you have a "problem" gun, I highly recommend using quality 7 round magazines instead of getting too hung up on the 8 rounders, and the added cost for that extra round.

As for the OP, if I was going to drop the big bucks on a 1911, I'd be calling up the S&W custom shop most likely. I've just been extremely impressed with them lately. Of course, all the other makes are a given, so I won't be redundant. Shame 10-8 don't build em anymore, that'd hands down be who I'd trust the most to get it right in every way that matters.

 

[SERparacord]

Nighthawk if I had 2k for a 1911. That is what I wanted when I bought my kimber... Have not had the best luck with my kimber. Lots of feed issues.

Parker

I'll gladly take it off your hands for $200, just to ease your pain.

 

[MikeDVB]

I do have to say every Kimber I've fired was flawless, but every one was from the custom shop. I can't speak to the quality if the lower end Kimbers.

 

[scsbronco]

Wow!

Some good advise and some bad.


There are many reasons for buying a QUALITY 1911. Try to get out and shoot as many as you can. If you are close to Valpo, you can try my Dan Wesson out. You'll see the difference, I call It the sewing machine. The difference you will notice is when you actually run it. I'm no gun expert but here's my advise........

I would NOT spend big money on an 80 series from anybody!
Take a hard look at the Dan Wesson Valor!


Quantity doesn't equal quality....I'd rather have one gun than four crap guns. It's the first time I've seen somebody criticized for saving up money to buy something. I'm glad you guys are happy with garbage. Ignorance is bliss.

 

[MikeDVB]

There are many reasons for buying a QUALITY 1911. Try to get out and shoot as many as you can. If you are close to Valpo, you can try my Dan Wesson out. You'll see the difference, I call It the sewing machine. The difference you will notice is when you actually run it. I'm no gun expert but here's my advise........

Indeed - a quality 1911 is night and day from a standard production-run gun.

I would NOT spend big money on an 80 series from anybody!
Take a hard look at the Dan Wesson Valor!

Personally I like the simplicity of the 70 series, so long as you take care to to do the required maintenance (replacing recoil and firing pin springs when necessary).

Quantity doesn't equal quality....I'd rather have one gun than four crap guns. It's the first time I've seen somebody criticized for saving up money to buy something. I'm glad you guys are happy with garbage. Ignorance is bliss.

Some people are just cheap . Some would rather have two cheaper cars, er guns, than one really nice car... er .... gun.

 

[churchmouse]

Indeed - a quality 1911 is night and day from a standard production-run gun.

Personally I like the simplicity of the 70 series, so long as you take care to to do the required maintenance (replacing recoil and firing pin springs when necessary).

Some people are just cheap . Some would rather have two cheaper cars, er guns, than one really nice car... er .... gun.

As to being cheap....I see it all the time. Folks want to jump in and play but either do not have the funds or will not part with them. It is a personal thing and happens in every hobby.
Friend wants a 1911. I let him shoot all of mine. He loves them. Says he is saving to get a nice one. Shows up a week later with a RIA. Go to the range.
POS will not run. Friend is PI$$ED off. Bad mouths 1911's. I tell him it is not the guns fault as you get what you pay for. He is still Pi$$ed.
In the end it is on him for being impatient and not following good advice.
There are many sub $800 1911's on the market and most are really decent pieces. I am a big fan of the Springfield's. My Range Officer and Loaded models will run right with most higher end guns. Done it many times.
My TRP is a freaking machine.... american or not....who cares. Not much is totally American these days.
My stainless Trophy is just a joy to run.
Having shot most everything listed (not shot the DW Valor) I can find no reason to go Monkey fecal matter on a high end 1911 other than the "Wood" and bragging rights factor.
JMHO