.380 Mouse Gun...Or Powerful Stopper?

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  • ru44mag

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    If there is one thing I have learned over the years, is that research can be done by 10 different groups on the same topic, and they can come up with 10 different conclusions. Oh yea, and everybody has an opinion. I read something the other day that I thought I would share and see how opinions there were on the subject.:D
    The .380 ACP (9x17mm) cartridge is considered a powerful stopper in Europe, where it has a long history as a police service cartridge, but a mouse gun cartridge in the U.S. The reality is somewhere between, but in this case the Europeans are closer to reality. Certainly, the 9mm Luger (9x19mm) cartridge can launch a heavier bullet of the same diameter somewhat faster and the .38 Super or .357 SIG are faster yet. All of these exceed the maximum stopping power of the .380 ACP, given JHP bullets of similar terminal performance. On the other hand, modern .380 loads using JHP bullets like the Federal Hydra-Shok deliver serious stopping power, similar to a .38 Special snub-nose revolver with similar JHP bullets. Thus, .380 pistols are certainly not mouse guns. Nobody in their right mind would want to be shot by a .38 Special revolver or a .380 ACP pistol, no matter how much they might belittle their stopping power! In their extensive stopping power study, Marshal and Sanow found that the Federal 95 grain JHP .380 factory load delivered about 65% one shot stops, compared to 64% one shot stops for the Federal 125 grain JHP .38 Spec. factory load fired from a 2" barrel revolver. To illustrate how important it is to choose a bullet that expands reliably, the (non-expanding) Federal 230 grain FMJ .45 ACP load delivered 64% one shot stops (mostly from a 5" barrel), virtually identical to the short barreled .38 snubby and .380 Auto with JHP ammunition!
    :popcorn:
     

    9mmfan

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    I'll stick with my G19 loaded with 124 Gr + P Gold Dots.



    Edit: Or Cor Bon (they ROCK!)
     
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    Bigbuck5

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    Yup, I'll stick with the 9 too. With all the choices in small handguns today there is no reason to go .380. The recoil in the blowback pistols feels worse to me than the locked breach 9mm as well. It all comes down to personal preference in the end I guess.
     

    churchmouse

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    Have a Derringer in .380
    It is totally an up close and very personal piece. Last resort only. I would never rely on a .380 as an EDC unless it was all I had.

    Taught my kids to shoot pistol with a .380 Browning and it was reliable, accurate and easy to shoot. Beyond that??????
     

    AD Marc

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    It's a marginal caliber. Quality hollowpoints in this caliber tend to penetrate roughly 8-10" in ballistic gelatin (before anyone makes comments about jello attackers, know that autopsy results have validated calibrated ordnance gelatin as a suitable proxy in multiple studies).

    Penetration of 12"+ is considered optimal by the FBI and IWBA. This is for good reason. When measured from the sternum, 8-10" would seem like it would reach vital thoracic structures, but seldom is such an optimal shot provided. Often projectiles must pass through arms before reaching the torso or traverse the body from odd angles. As such, the minimums were selected to allow reasonable penetration to disrupt vital structures in a wide variety of body types and from all angles.

    Why was this round considered a decent stopper in Europe? For one thing, Europeans are smaller than Americans and it is likely ball ammunition was issued at the time the 380 saw widespread use. While that would allow for adequate penetration, it may risk overpenetration. At the same time, US police were issued fairly marginal 38 caliber revolvers, which were also considered good man stoppers, considering what they replaced. Since then, we have both learned what works better and moved on.

    Today, I see little reason to carry a 380. Many 9mm handguns are available in similarly compact platforms and due to many 380's using a direct blowback design, recoil is similar. If you insist, just know it is marginal and accept it. Most bad guys stop when shot regardless for psychological reasons (they give up). If you run across the rare one that needs physiological motivation to stop their attack, you may be behind the curve. While the .380, on your person is better than the service caliber gun at home, platitudes don't increase wounding potential.
     
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    BehindBlueI's

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    .380 is the bottom end of what I consider a reasonable defensive round. I've seen it go through-and-through and adult's abdomen and I've seen it break a femur into 3 pieces. Its not a mouse gun.

    That said, as others have pointed out, there are so many good 9mm choices out there today that occupy the same real estate of the .380, its starting to lose its niche. If I had one, I wouldn't rush out to replace it, but I also wouldn't specifically sniff out a .380 for a new purchase. I no longer own one, when I consolidated calibers it didn't make the cut.
     

    88E30M50

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    A .380 in your pocket if far more powerful than the Glock 20 left at home. Take as much gun as you can carry. Some situations dictate small and concealable, but others allow big guns and lots of ammo. Don't try to make the same answer fit every question unless you have to.

    I own a couple of .380s and, while it's not my first choice to carry, it is a fun caliber to shoot and reload for. With .22lr becoming rare, I shoot .380 now more than before. Reloading can put the cost under $5 for 50 and I think it's pretty effective to train with. Plus, it's fun to shoot.
     

    minuteman32

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    Well, I carry a G19 &/or G26 &/or LCR357 or 38.

    That being said, I'd rather have my LCP in my pocket than my Glock left at home.

    Good HP ammo and a spare mag for your 380 & you should be okay in most situations.
     

    pokersamurai

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    In their extensive stopping power study, Marshal and Sanow found that the Federal 95 grain JHP .380 factory load delivered about 65% one shot stops, compared to 64% one shot stops for the Federal 125 grain JHP .38 Spec. factory load fired from a 2" barrel revolver. To illustrate how important it is to choose a bullet that expands reliably, the (non-expanding) Federal 230 grain FMJ .45 ACP load delivered 64% one shot stops (mostly from a 5" barrel), virtually identical to the short barreled .38 snubby and .380 Auto with JHP ammunition!
    :popcorn:


    The Marshall and Sanow "stopping power" statistics are widely regarded in the ballistics community as being unreliable at best (and complete BS at worst). The idea that you should choose a defensive cartridge on magical "one-shot stop" statistics in crazy.

    In reality the only thing that can stop a determined aggressor is shot placement followed by penetration. If a round is put in the right spot and can penetrate deep enough to hit a vital system, then it will be effective.

    The problem with the .380 round (and other smaller cartridges) is that often they lack the penetration needed to reach vitals, especially when expanding ammunition is used. That is why when I have to carry a .380, I load it with FMJ ammunition. I would rather have a non-expanding round that will penetrate deep enough to reach a bad-guy's vitals, than to have a round that will aggressively expand but that under-penetrates.
     
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    I used to carry a .380 a lot. while I would not like to try to catch one in my teeth, I did consider it a "mousegun". I would carry a .22 without worry also, because for me shot placement is my number 1 strategy. Although I am carrying a .357 now, I didn't change to get more power, I changed because I could no longer shoot the tiny little .380 effectively due to arthritis problems. My .357 is a revolver, and almost three times the size of my 380. I can get a grip on it and it doesn't have tiny little switches all over it, so .357 it is!

    In my opinion the caliber is not as important as being able to put a bullet right where you want it. Like my wife always tells me, "6 of my tiny bullets (.22's) are every bit worth one of your big ones! And only ONE of them is worth one of yours if I can hit you in your 'nards!
     

    Bigtanker

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    Shot placement is still more inmporant the the size of the bullet. That being said, under stress, hitting where you aim is more difficult and I'll take any advantage I can get. If I had to carry a .380, I'd practice and train as much as possible and use the best sd ammo I could get my hands on that works in my gun.
     

    churchmouse

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    I have mag-safe rds. in my .380 derringer. Not sure they are still offered but they pack some punch for the size.
     
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    bluewraith

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    I recently picked up a Tarus TCP (.380) to use as a BUG, but it may also see duty as a CC piece if I ever feel the need to CC instead of OCing the 1911 (in .45acp as God intended).

    If it takes a smaller caliber gun in a smaller form factor for someone to carry, then by all means do it. If you are not comfortable with a full size 1911 hanging off your hip, but a mousegun in your pocket is okay, then it is a pretty obvious choice.

    Another thing to consider when choosing your carry caliber is how much you are willing to train with it. My girlfriend had an LC9 for a period of time, and neither of us liked to shoot it. Too small/light for the 9mm round. The TCP on the other hand isn't nearly as punishing to the hands. If something isn't enjoyable to shoot, you are less likely to practice shooting it.
     

    AD Marc

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    A note on shot placement: since human targets are three-dimensional, It only matters if the round continues through the body to disrupt vital structures. If the round fails to do that, then you've only suceeded in making a hole in nothing important. If your goal is to shoot them in the heart, then shooting them in the tissue that is providing cover to their heart from your bullets isn't meeting that goal. Keep this in mind when talking about sub calibers and select your ammunition wisely.
     

    .452browning

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    Learn it, practice it, perfect it. A .380 doesn't tickle the bad guys into submission. Well placed shots do. I carried a .380 as a BUG for quite a while. I sold it primarily because of financial obligations (d*** bills). I will upgrade to a 9mm as a BUG just to partner it with my primary.

    The .380 in my eyes isn't a terrible round. With good defensive ammunition it can prove life saving. So can the .25, .22, etc. However personally the .380 is the smallest cartridge I will carry for defense.

    With that being said, my EDC is a G17 9mm and a soon to be G26 as a BUG. I would have no problem getting a .380 as another gun. The smith and Wesson bodyguard .380 looks mighty fine.
     

    Duce

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    Truism: Only hits count and who is going to stop at one shot when someone is intent on doing you harm.....................:@ya:......................<><Duce
     

    rooster

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    I routinely now carry a NAA 22 in my pocket when my attire doesnt allow me to carry my glock 22.

    I feel perfectly fine with this choice. It all comes down to personal choice in the great caliber debate. Many will say if its not a 45 your not gonna stand a chance or if you dont have 15 rounds you dont have enough :rolleyes:. but it all comes down to personal preference and what you feel is adequate to protect yourself with.

    If you feel a 380 is good enough then there is no need to justify the choice with studies or tests. If you have to draw your weapon :draw:to defend yourself I sincerely doubt that the Bad guy will laugh because your gun isnt big enough.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    A note on shot placement: since human targets are three-dimensional, It only matters if the round continues through the body to disrupt vital structures. If the round fails to do that, then you've only suceeded in making a hole in nothing important. If your goal is to shoot them in the heart, then shooting them in the tissue that is providing cover to their heart from your bullets isn't meeting that goal. Keep this in mind when talking about sub calibers and select your ammunition wisely.

    All very true. Few would consider a butt shot good "shot placement", but they can be fatal when they deflect up into the abdomen and sever an important blood vessel. A chest show would be "good shot placement", but if the bullet rides a rib around and never enters the vitals, it doesn't matter.

    Given the complexity of angles, tissue densities, and bone structure of the human body, shot placement doesn't necessarily equate to wound tracks. Sometimes they tunnel straight, sometimes they don't.
     

    Spikedog

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    I am in the camp of "its better to carry a small gun than nothing." And like others, I wouldn't want to stand in front of a .380!
     
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