.380 Mouse Gun...Or Powerful Stopper?

[ru44mag]

THIS

Full disclosure: I used to carry a .380 round.

People can talk about ballistic gel tests with the .380 all they want, but I personally came to hate the .380 round for a variety of reasons.

First, it's a "sub caliber". As AD Marc pointed out, hitting the thorasic cavity doesn't mean a hill of beans if the round doesn't penetrate all of the way to the heart, lungs, etc. Working in an ER, I cannot tell you how many times I've seen the .380 round fail to penetrate. Is it some sort of inert dud round that never penetrates? Of course not. But it isn't exactly what I would call "reliable" either.

Secondly, the tiny platforms the .380 comes in turn it into a mouse gun. It's been my experience that the ****-poor sight radius, lightweight frames, little sights, etc give you a gun that has almost as much noise and recoil as a slightly larger 9mm platform (or the same size 9mm with a double spring) with none of the reliable penetration. Basically, it's hard to hit with small guns to begin with. Thus your shot placement is going to suck compared to a larger gun. Then when the bullet does strike its target it has a real chance of failing to penetrate as far as you need it too.

Third, the ammo is ridiculously over-priced for what you are getting in performance. You're talking about paying as much for .380 as you do .40. That's insanity.

Finally, as others have pointed out, you can get a 9mm in the same size range with marginally more recoil and a much better round.

Thus it has been classified as a totally usless caliber in my book.

I was really surprised to see this thread back from the dead. But seeing as how I started it, and we debated in the past in your "Crazy ER Stories", I thought I would chime in yet again. I know that to you, the .380 is useless. That's fine. I doubt it will ever be useless to me. I personally have 2 little handguns that I shoot very well. I do understand your concern over lack of penatration. And I keep that in mind every time I carry. And it was you Aaron1776 that convinced me to buy a Kahr CM9. I went to pick it up yesterday as a matter of fact. I was very disappointed when a CW9 was sent instead. Oh well, I will get it next week and try it out. If I like it and it carries well, then it might be my main carry. However, My Sig P238 will always get a chance, as well as my LCP, because they carry well, hit well and I have faith in them. Perhaps, and I know you believe, blind faith, but none the less I will carry them, because I like them. Besides that, I've seen James Bond make hundreds of one shot kills with a .380, so it must be true.

 

[Plisken]

I have a 380 9mm and a 32acp. What Im doing that day dictates what I carry. And rule #1 of gun fighting is have a gun. And a 380 is batter than a gun left at home in the safe.

 

[Hohn]

You had me going there until you said "Marshal and Sanow." The last pair that was a bigger joke was Rowan and Martin.

Under lab conditions, .380 is a mild round shouldn't be trusted for personal defense.

But in the real world, all that changes. Recoil affects accuracy, and an accurate load is a lethal load-- forget what the jello says. A .380 in the facial triangle WILL stop the aggressor. Far more than a .40SW in the kneecap.


I've been one of those that disrespected the .380's firepower. But if the .380 can be deployed rapidly and with great accuracy, it is certainly able. Guns don't react by themselves-- they are only half the story. The other half (the shooter) matters, and so does how that caliber affects their ability to perform their role.

No one carrying any of many tack-accurate .380s should feel under-gunned if they can shoot the eyelashes off a gnat with it.

JMO

 

[10mmfan]

I don't have anything against the .380 as a cc pistol or a backup gun. I just don't quite understand why when you can get a Kahr K9 or a smaller model Kahr in steel or polymer in 9mm. A friend of mine has a Beretta .380, it's a model 84 I think. It's a larger pistol than my Kahr and not as powerful. My Kahr k9 is a steel frame model and its a very pleasant gun to shoot.

 

[Mackey]

I am in the camp of "its better to carry a small gun than nothing." And like others, I wouldn't want to stand in front of a .380!

I wouldn't want to stand in front of a slingshot either. But I'm not going to carry one.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I don't understand the Marshall and Sanow hate. No paradigm is going to be perfect, but it seems to me that the results of actual shootings would provide pretty solid evidence of the capabilities of any given weapon. Also, using one-shot stops as a benchmark makes sense. After all, that is the goal and we measure most everything and everyone else by the frequency with which they produce desirable results in a timely fashion, so why not with firearms? I can't say that I consult this or anyone else's research to make my purchasing decisions, but I have a difficult time understanding how cumulative results of actual shootings can be deemed to fall into the realm of the questionable and/or complete BS. After all, it is merely a report of what did in fact happen.

 

[WC Deer Hunter]

I don't understand the Marshall and Sanow hate. No paradigm is going to be perfect, but it seems to me that the results of actual shootings would provide pretty solid evidence of the capabilities of any given weapon. Also, using one-shot stops as a benchmark makes sense. After all, that is the goal and we measure most everything and everyone else by the frequency with which they produce desirable results in a timely fashion, so why not with firearms? I can't say that I consult this or anyone else's research to make my purchasing decisions, but I have a difficult time understanding how cumulative results of actual shootings can be deemed to fall into the realm of the questionable and/or complete BS. After all, it is merely a report of what did in fact happen.

How dare you try and use logic to defend your thoughts on this subject! This is the interewebs best thread site and you know the interwebs is the end all be all decision maker. If INGO interwebs says .380 is bad then you know a bad guy will just laugh at you when you shoot him with it.

For those who can't tell (Insert sarcasm as needed)

 

[ru44mag]

How dare you try and use logic to defend your thoughts on this subject! This is the interewebs best thread site and you know the interwebs is the end all be all decision maker. If INGO interwebs says .380 is bad then you know a bad guy will just laugh at you when you shoot him with it.

For those who can't tell (Insert sarcasm as needed)

This pretty much sums up the whole thread. It has to be true. It's the interweb! And when I get my Kahr CM9 next week, I'm selling the rest of my worthless .380s.

 

[Packrat67]

Interesting thread. But a usual nobody is being convinced to change their opinion. IMHO if I have to face a bad guy with my Sig 232 (3) thoughts will pass through his mind in rapid order, 1) O **** 2) How did I get into this mess and 3) How do I get the bleep out of here. And since I really do not want to shoot anyone I hope that He/She figgers an answer to #3 real fast. My little German friend will put the hurts on the stupid in short order.

 

[Dirtdart504]

I've seen a guy take a 9 mm right under the xyphoid process and live. Probably a FMJ, but not sure. I've seen a guy take a .22 LR to the shoulder, shot from the side, and die where he fell. There are so many variables, but you can better your odds by carrying something more substantial. The argument for the .380 used to be the guns were more concealable. The XDS is a good argument against .380.

 

[JettaKnight]

I don't have anything against the .380 as a cc pistol or a backup gun. I just don't quite understand why when you can get a Kahr K9 or a smaller model Kahr in steel or polymer in 9mm. A friend of mine has a Beretta .380, it's a model 84 I think. It's a larger pistol than my Kahr and not as powerful. My Kahr k9 is a steel frame model and its a very pleasant gun to shoot.

Because some people don't like Kahr or the other light nine. There's a lot to be said for the elegance of blowback pistol.

Personally, I "upgraded" from 9mm x 17 because of the cost of ammo. I now carry the much more powerful 9mm x 18!


Just remember, the internet is the only place where a .380 doesn't kill.

 

[cosermann]

I don't understand the Marshall and Sanow hate. ... it seems to me that the results of actual shootings would provide pretty solid evidence of the capabilities of any given weapon. ...

I think some of the "hate" as you describe it is more frustration that M&S have gotten away with what they have for so long in spite of a fair bit of published refutation of their "data" = much of which seems to be select results of shootings, cherry picked at nothing more M&S's whim as far as we can tell.

And this isn't counting the "results" that appear, to many, to be completely fabricated.

Just a few representative references below:

The Marshall & Sanow "Data" - Statistical Analysis Tells the Ugly Story
Discrepancies in the Marshall & Sanow "Data Base": An Evaluation Over Time
Sanow Strikes (Out) Again
Book Review: Street Stoppers
Undeniable Evidence

 

[Hohn]

I think some of the "hate" as you describe it is more frustration that M&S have gotten away with what they have for so long in spite of a fair bit of published refutation of their "data" = much of which seems to be select results of shootings, cherry picked at nothing more M&S's whim as far as we can tell.

And this isn't counting the "results" that appear, to many, to be completely fabricated.

Just a few representative references below:

The Marshall & Sanow "Data" - Statistical Analysis Tells the Ugly Story
Discrepancies in the Marshall & Sanow "Data Base": An Evaluation Over Time
Sanow Strikes (Out) Again
Book Review: Street Stoppers
Undeniable Evidence

This^^. M&S attempt to take an event with myriad variables that contribute to the outcome and reduce it to a simple caliber=stopping power correlation.

Most folks familiar with scientific method will see the lack of controlling for key variables to be a fatal error in the methodology.

At the very least, the competence is questionable. In the extreme, the integrity is also questionable.

 

[ModernGunner]

The Marshall & Sanow study has long been proven to be fallacious. So wrong, in fact, that the chances of it being statistically correct, or anything other than wrong, is 1:100,000,000,000,000,000,000. That's 1 in 100 Billion Billion.

If one understands that MOST studies are conducted with an end result anticipated, predicted, or pre-determined (ALL of which represent an 'agenda' on the part of the person(s) conduction the study), then it's easy to figure out that MOST so-called 'studies' are, at the minimum, flawed from the onset.

At the other end, the study is 'perpetrated' by the study authors so they can 'prove' their point. This is what is MOST OFTEN done with the Feinstein-type anti-gun loons.

There is virtually nothing (available to civilians and law enforcement) that we can shoulder that in ANY way 'guarantees' a 'one shot stop', short of something that blows the body apart: RPG, bazooka, etc.

The best bet any us have is to carry the gun, with the greatest power, that we can consistently put rounds on only the target. A .22 that hits exactly it's mark is a trillion times better than a .50 BMG that misses. Pretty simple.

What gun that is for you, that enables you to hit the target with virtually 100% accuracy under the stress of a combat scenario, under the stress of someone shooting at YOU, can only be determined by you.

 

[BrownSafe]

The Kahr P380 we reviewed was accurate even out to 75 feet, so we were pretty happy with it. Plus, the ability to fire +P rounds brings it into the same realm as a 9MM, but it is really just a matter of preference.

We did a review on the Kahr P380 here.

 

[Aaron1776]

I was really surprised to see this thread back from the dead. But seeing as how I started it, and we debated in the past in your "Crazy ER Stories", I thought I would chime in yet again. I know that to you, the .380 is useless. That's fine. I doubt it will ever be useless to me. I personally have 2 little handguns that I shoot very well. I do understand your concern over lack of penatration. And I keep that in mind every time I carry. And it was you Aaron1776 that convinced me to buy a Kahr CM9. I went to pick it up yesterday as a matter of fact. I was very disappointed when a CW9 was sent instead. Oh well, I will get it next week and try it out. If I like it and it carries well, then it might be my main carry. However, My Sig P238 will always get a chance, as well as my LCP, because they carry well, hit well and I have faith in them. Perhaps, and I know you believe, blind faith, but none the less I will carry them, because I like them. Besides that, I've seen James Bond make hundreds of one shot kills with a .380, so it must be true.

YES!!! I convinced a .380 user to move up to a 9mm!!!!!!!!! My words haven't fallen upon deaf ears!!


That's what I'm choosing to take away from that paragraph.

 

[ru44mag]

YES!!! I convinced a .380 user to move up to a 9mm!!!!!!!!! My words haven't fallen upon deaf ears!!


That's what I'm choosing to take away from that paragraph.

LOL. Not 100%, but I have since received and shot my CM9 and really like it a lot. Recoil is low, accuracy is good and function is flawless. Feels really good in the hand and carries well IWB. As much as I like it, I still like the P238 a little better. But you are the one that first got me thinking about the CM9. Thanks.

 

[Aaron1776]

LOL. Not 100%, but I have since received and shot my CM9 and really like it a lot. Recoil is low, accuracy is good and function is flawless. Feels really good in the hand and carries well IWB. As much as I like it, I still like the P238 a little better. But you are the one that first got me thinking about the CM9. Thanks.

Hahaha you're welcome sir. You're welcome.


....now the next step is to move you into a bigger platform.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Besides that, I've seen James Bond make hundreds of one shot kills with a .380, so it must be true.

Didn't Bond use a .32 ACP?

 

[ru44mag]

Hahaha you're welcome sir. You're welcome.


....now the next step is to move you into a bigger platform.

I have 2 44mags, 3 357mags and 2 Hi-Powers (9mm). Which do you think I should carry? Years ago I used to practice quick draws with a tie down holster for my 7.5" Super Blackhawk on the right and my GP100 on the left. I was real fast. LOL I think I will OC both at the same time.