A Higher Education

[cedartop]

I will point out a difference I see between Jackson and I. He does a better job of making his points in written word than I do.

 

[rhino]

I will point out a difference I see between Jackson and I. He does a better job of making his points in written word than I do.

You do quite well, but your assessment of Jackson's abilities to communicate effectively are spot-on. He is modest and won't consider himself to be a teacher, but he is a teacher whether he likes it or not and he's an effective one. I've learned quite a few things from him and more importantly, he has challenged me to consider my own positions more carefully, which led to confirmation of certainty in some cases and reconsideration of alternatives in others. You absolutely want him in your classes because he always adds value with his questions and observations as well as when he offers alternative opinions.

 

[Denny347]

Indeed. To me, being an SME requires something more than just proficiency. I think that would disqualify most "basic pistol" instructors out there. I would guess most people teaching basic marksmanship and safety classes don't qualify as "expert" as I would define it.

I guess I need to bare the soul in this one. Jackson and I have very similar training backgrounds. At least as far as taking classes goes. He doesn't feel that he is qualified to teach, I do teach. Hmm. It would be less than honest of me to say I don't feel the same way as Jackson at times. Especially when I consider the magnitude of importance of what we are teaching. As Tom Givens likes to remind students, "you literally are carrying around the power of life and death". It is a big deal to carry a gun for personal defense and a really big deal to teach people about it. Some don't seem to get that. Back to Jackson and I. I do have prior experience in the Military, Corrections, and LE, but as I have mentioned before, for a large part that means nothing, and I was not in any of them long enough to have a specialty that would make it mean something. Just having been a soldier or cop in no way means you are competent for teaching.

I do not remember what instructor level classes Jackson has had. I will say that my instructor classes in Combat Pistol, Red Dot Pistol, and CQB fighting in structures, did little more than codify the material that was to be taught. My Rangemaster Instructor and Advanced Instructor classes definitely helped to further my teaching abilities, but still aren't really enough. As was mentioned in the article something akin to an apprenticeship under a true master, or even good journeyman would be awesome. Before I could teach a number of things for Suarez (rifle for one), I had to not only take the class, but assistant teach it a number of times. This is a good start. Having that much hands on gives you a good idea about a lot of different things that can happen in class with regards to safety, human behavior, equipment, and a whole bunch of other thing that just some books or even classes taken won't do. Unfortunately even with those who use this model, they cut it way short.

Subject Matter Expert is somewhat vague. There is always someone who knows more than you, and there is always someone who thinks you know enough to be a SME. I think you definitely want to be at least 2 if not 3 levels above those who you are teaching. Will there be a student every so often who can outshoot or outfight you? Of course, that is going to happen to everyone. If however it is happening on a regular basis, you may want to change the level you are teaching to, or consider not teaching at all until you make significant improvements. This is one of the reasons I let have Josh teach the Managing Confrontations class and I just step in where my actual street experience is relevant. Someone mentioned earlier about coaches not being able to outperform their athletes, I get that, but I will also say that is use as cover by far too many poor instructors.

Let me leave you with a story of what I mean, and I could actually tell a lot more, but this one should suffice to make my point. I was recently in my LGS when a customer brought in a cased handgun. The owners wife asked him if it was unloaded. He said of course it is, after all I worked DOD for 6 years and am a NRA MI CPL instructor. He went on for quite some time about his qualifications. Long story short, he said he was having problems with his handgun, the slide wasn't cycling correctly. The owner of the store took the gun in back and returned a short time later saying he found the problem. THE GUN WAS MISSING ITS GUIDE ROD. Our intrepid hero, former DOD and current NRA instructor asked if that was important.... Think about that for a minute. He is an instructor teaching people who get their carry license. Some of you are going to laugh at this, but I see similar stuff all of the time. Of course everybody thinks that is someone else, not them. Why in the hell do we have so many firearms "accidents" then.

If you are an Instructor, or wannabe instructor, what you are teaching is important, and it is serious. Treat it accordingly.

Edited to add; I am not using wannabe as or pejorative or to imply I am above all of this. As I have stated before, if I am a SME of anything, it is being a student.

In my view Subject Matter Expert is a very high bar. Its hard to define, but to me it is someone who is not only familiar with their way, but familiar with several ways, the history of those ways, the reasons for each, experience with each, can perform with each, and can show the ins and outs of each. SME, to me, means a wide body of knowledge not easily obtained and those that have it are probably teaching something more than basic marksmanship at the local range, or not interested in teaching at all. Maybe I'm too strict with the term "expert".

I have the current privilege of working with 3 SME in Use of Force, they are all 3 my friends. All 3 officers come from different backgrounds but converged on Use of Force. One officer is a lawyer who came from a firearms instructor background. The other two came from a physical tactics, MMA fighting background. The lawyer teaches criminal law to our recruits and the other two teach physical tactics. All 3 answer UoF questions from IA, the Chief, and outside agencies. I teach physical tactics and now that I work with them full-time, hope to absorb enough info to one day be considered a SME. The lawyer even offered to train me up so I can help him teach criminal law in his place when he cannot for some reason. I'm surely taking him up on his offer. Surrounding yourself with those more learned than you is a sure way to grow. I am looking forward to the new journey.

 

[cedartop]

Reading this article brought this thread to mind.

I have written before about the dangers and problems caused by people who don’t (yet) know what they are doing when they step up to teach. This goes ten-fold for people who step up to teach beginners without themselves having any real skill or understanding of the job.
Why?

 

[rhino]

Reading this article brought this thread to mind.

I have written before about the dangers and problems caused by people who don’t (yet) know what they are doing when they step up to teach. This goes ten-fold for people who step up to teach beginners without themselves having any real skill or understanding of the job.
Why?

My experience agrees with that article. It is much easier to teach/coach experienced students because they've been trained how to receive the information and how to ask for what they need if they're not getting it.

 

[Bfish]

Reading this article brought this thread to mind.

I have written before about the dangers and problems caused by people who don’t (yet) know what they are doing when they step up to teach. This goes ten-fold for people who step up to teach beginners without themselves having any real skill or understanding of the job.
Why?

This is a great article. I have a lot of thoughts on "trainers" and "teachers" I know there is technically a difference between the two but I look at all of us as teachers most of the time and some people as trainers. I also think that people should not discount themselves because they all offer a different piece of the pie (or puzzle) for others.

I see myself as a teacher. I have never taught a class but I have done a lot of stuff with people one on one. Usually because I have been approached and asked to. It's usually not a whole lot more than showing them how to be safe, how to operate the firearm, proper shooting fundamentals, and help them get a good foundation in general. I'm more than happy to pass on to them what I can and what I've learned in the classes I have taken but more or less I am just "teaching" someone what I have mastered. I see that a crucially important, I am not a trainer, I do not wish to be, but I had a group of solid guys get me off and running and I love to return the favor to others. I know a lot of people here fit in this role perfectly. I also know that everyone has seen some guy at the range "teaching" someone "how to shoot" and it's just godawful as well. However, if you're contemplating these things and have had formal training you are competent in some way. If you have a good foundation or have mastered certain things (yes you can always improve) but have command of something, why are you then unqualified to pass that on. Of the maybe 30 people I frequently come in to contact with that carry a gun, maybe 2 of them have had much training. So if you have, you are way more qualified than every other joe blow out there. When you have people asking you for help even those who do shoot, that's another good indicator as well I realized.

I am willing to learn from anyone who can teach me something I don't know. However, I have been in classes where I felt like I was learning amazing things, taking a new perspective, and trying new things. But I have also been in "classes" where I felt as qualified or better informed than the "instructor" teaching which thankfully was free and I chalked it up for you get what you pay for. I also look at trainers for what they offer. I break it into tactical training and performance shooting for the most part. Some trainers do teach both but for the most part they fall into one or the other with their focus. This is where everyone has a piece of the pie comes in. There are so many people out there who can teach me to be a better shooter, to get my splits down, make faster transitions, and more. There are also lots of guys out there who can teach me stuff and keep me from getting my butt kicked in force on force.

Cedartop with you saying Jackson doesn't feel qualified and you do I think that's all a matter of perspective and I can really appreciate it. I am confident that I could spend a lot of time with you two (knowing some of your training past) and learn a ton! Simple fact if you guys should know a lot of stuff I have never been taught. Jollymon can teach me a ton about night vision I bet too. When you go to a class as a student in a way you can become a teacher of that subject and not be a trainer. There are always people that know less than you looking to learn. I did not realize this until I started looking at all of the "gun guys" around me who carry guns all of the time and have never been to a training class. Not to say that it's prerequisite to be competent but there are many times distinct differences between guys who put time in and guys who don't. I only shoot with one guy who is flat out great and not been to really any formal training. However he surrounds himself with lots of guys who have, and they have taught him much of what they've learned. Heck I was shocked when I pulled a tourniquet out on the range the other day and he didn't know how to use it. Well guess what he does now. Things like that always teaching, trainer or not. One of my buddies when to mid south the military shooting school (I think that's the name) with a bunch of guys from his unit and shot an unbelievable amount. I pumped him for so much info when he came back and I learned more from him about target transition and he's not a trainer.

Blue Falcon this sums you up perfectly! I don't ever plan to be a trainer either. But I sure do like teaching people and I get enjoyment out of seeing the bulbs light up in people heads when they get it. Or when the master a good grip, and shoot the group size they are striving for etc. I don't have nearly the training classes under my belt that Jackson or Cedartop have and wouldn't feel comfortable offering a class to people and taking their money. But as I looked around I began to feel obligated to help some people out because the other people standing around willing to do it didn't have a clue what they were doing. With people who get their butts in training classes on a regular basis are often way more qualified than most, they are just surrounded by similar people keeping them humble and they don't see themselves as qualified when you are more qualified than "buba" will ever be. And most likely a better instructor than the NRA certified instructor you see flaunting themselves around town soliciting their training.

Maybe not a trainer but within reason always a teacher.

I know a lot of that was somewhat off topic but as far as an instructor and education go. I decide what I want to learn and then I find some people best equipped to teach it to me and I feel can get me where I want to go. Some have more experience or "education" than others. But they all know more than me.

 

[Coach]

I teach a ton of new shooters. It is a challenge. I find it to be a very rewarding experience. Last night a lady who was significantly older than me was in class learning to shoot. She was convinced she would need a revolver as a gun because she could not rack the slide. She had been convinced of this by some friends who to that point had been her teachers. She left class not only believing should could rack the slide but have done it a number of times on multiple guns. These well meaning instructors were wrong.

I am in the process of training some folks to teach beginners class and they don't understand why they should be able to shoot at some minimum standard to teach other people the basics.

The attitude that prevails that I can teach some people some things boggles my mind. Just because you passed the third grade does not mean you are qualified to teach the third grade.

 

[Jackson]

Reading this article brought this thread to mind.

I have written before about the dangers and problems caused by people who don’t (yet) know what they are doing when they step up to teach. This goes ten-fold for people who step up to teach beginners without themselves having any real skill or understanding of the job.
Why?

Lot of truth in that article. I wouldn't want to deal with more than a handful of brand new shooters on the line at a time. I much prefer one-on-one. There are many challenges in teaching brand new shooters.

 

[Jackson]

Just because you passed the third grade does not mean you are qualified to teach the third grade.

This.

 

[bwframe]

...Just because you passed the third grade does not mean you are qualified to teach the third grade.

 

[GNRPowdeR]

Just because you passed the third grade does not mean you are qualified to teach the third grade.

Being a journeyman EL at my day job (having the obligation to train apprentices) and a part-time instructor (when I'm able to help or teach a class), I'm very partial to this statement...
Too many (including myself, at times) need reminded of this very reality, because it helps us to remember to stay in our lanes and to learn what is in the next lane before changing / adding another lane(s) to our options for travel.

 

[Bfish]

I teach a ton of new shooters. It is a challenge. I find it to be a very rewarding experience. Last night a lady who was significantly older than me was in class learning to shoot. She was convinced she would need a revolver as a gun because she could not rack the slide. She had been convinced of this by some friends who to that point had been her teachers. She left class not only believing should could rack the slide but have done it a number of times on multiple guns. These well meaning instructors were wrong.

I am in the process of training some folks to teach beginners class and they don't understand why they should be able to shoot at some minimum standard to teach other people the basics.

The attitude that prevails that I can teach some people some things boggles my mind. Just because you passed the third grade does not mean you are qualified to teach the third grade.

This sums up a lot what I was getting at much better and without rambling. Great way of saying it!

 

[GIJEW]

Lot of truth in that article. I wouldn't want to deal with more than a handful of brand new shooters on the line at a time. I much prefer one-on-one. There are many challenges in teaching brand new shooters.

Absolutely true! IMO in an introductory class, not having very small student:teacher ratio detracts from both safety and what the student learns. Some 'get it' and you can't believe they've never shot before; others need a personal class and you're reluctant to turn your back on them, to supervise the rest.

 

[cedartop]

Absolutely true! IMO in an introductory class, not having very small student:teacher ratio detracts from both safety and what the student learns. Some 'get it' and you can't believe they've never shot before; others need a personal class and you're reluctant to turn your back on them, to supervise the rest.

I have so been there before. It is such a blessing to have a good assistant instructor with you in those cases as it can help in keeping the tempo of the class going while still being able to help the less experienced student.

 

[GNRPowdeR]

Absolutely true! IMO in an introductory class, not having very small student:teacher ratio detracts from both safety and what the student learns. Some 'get it' and you can't believe they've never shot before; others need a personal class and you're reluctant to turn your back on them, to supervise the rest.

I have so been there before. It is such a blessing to have a good assistant instructor with you in those cases as it can help in keeping the tempo of the class going while still being able to help the less experienced student.

 

[cedartop]

2017 Training Year in Review | Active Response Training

I thought this year in review from Greg Ellifritz fit this thread theme pretty well.

 

[Randy Harris]

OK Mike I'll wade in .....

Someone mentioned coaches not always being the best players....that is true but don't for a second lose sight of the fact that the majority of those coaches either played AT A HIGH LEVEL (either division 1 or pro) or were assistants to successful coaches to begin with before they coached on their own ...and sometimes were BOTH. So they might not have been an ALL STAR level player ....maybe they warmed the bench for their 3 year pro career before they got into coaching. Maybe they were "just another guy" on a Div 1 team. But don't lose sight of context.....Look at the WORST player on any NBA team. The guy who you don't even know his name unless you are a real serious die hard fanatic. He never even gets in the game unless it is a 40 point blowout ... but when that guy goes home and plays in the local rec league or YMCA pick up games he drops 40 on whoever is trying to guard him because he is THAT much better than the "average recreational player"....

So while you don't have to have been a world champion to teach shooting to the average recreational shooter you definitely need to be better than the "average recreational shooter". And ideally A LOT better. Sticking with this sport analogy.... to teach an elementary school kid to shoot free throws all you need to be able to do is shoot free throws and make more than you miss. But coaching a high school kid or a college player to shoot free throws you'd better know something about shooting free throws WELL. And this is JUST teaching them free throws....not any other aspects of the game. I'm not even talking about teaching them defense, rebounding, passing , dribbling, how to break a full court press, inbound plays, pick and roll, how to defend a pick and roll, etc etc.... If you didn't actually play at some level then you don't know how to do that stuff other than what you read in "basketball coaching for dummies". You might know WHAT to do...but not necessarily HOW to do it. There is a difference. Teaching someone to SHOOT A PISTOL is teaching them free throws...teaching them how to FIGHT WITH A PISTOL is teaching them to PLAY basketball. There is a HUGE difference.

Unfortunately there are a lot of folks who go get an NRA cert and hang out a shingle teaching "combat shooting " and are just frankly out of their depth. They are not necessarily bad people they just do not know the depth of what they do not know. There is a particular Instagram star who when he first started posting made experienced close quarters instructors cringe because while he was a fast shooter his close quarters posture was absolutely abysmal and if he'd done that for real he'd likely end up on the ground in a wrestling match over his gun....because inanimate targets never fight back and his sum total of experience was at shooting fast at inanimate targets...not with grappling with live assailants in a weapons based environment...there is a HUGE difference. He needed to stick with teaching free throws until he took the time to learn how to PLAY basketball....

 

[Randy Harris]

Now having said that do you need to have played in the NBA to teach a high school kid to shoot free throws? Of course not.

Do you need to be a USPSA GM to teach grandma gun safety? No. Of course not.

But as the areas of instruction become more numerous and more technical you really need to have had some training in it , not just watching some Youtube and instagram instructors. And this is just in knowing HOW to do the thing you are teaching...you also really need to know something about TEACHING if you are going to actually be teaching. It is one thing to offer to show dudes at the local range how to grip the gun better so it doesn't jump around in their hand...it is another to take money for teaching open enrollment classes when you are not really qualified to do it. And in this industry there is just so little that the "low information consumer" knows that an alarming number of newly minted instructors can "get away with" not knowing much more than the student.

And that brings us to the "buyer beware" part. The problem is that some people in this industry refuse to even show a training resume and some others word their resume in such a way that they appear to be more than what they are. Case in point is a website I was looking at recently where the instructor listed all his police centric experience and training and that he was active in IDPA for a while and won 2 state IDPA championships . I thought "wow apparently this guy can shoot too why have I never heard of him?"...until you read further down and they were in the Marksman class.....which is the LOWEST classification in IDPA. Now I'm not disparaging the guys who have just started competing and getting better and moving up in classifications because not everyone tests into Master class to begin with. Everyone has to start somewhere....but to list 2 state championships as a key resume point without mentioning (until the fine print) they were in MM class is part of why it is sometimes difficult for the unknowing buyer to sift through who they should want to train with.

 

[Coach]

Two great posts Randy.

Being a former wrestler I don't care for the basketball references but I get the point.

 

[Randy Harris]

Teaching a single leg takedown is teaching shooting.... teaching escapes,arm drags, duck unders and Granby rolls and how to wrestle a match, not just shoot for single legs is teaching fighting......

Teaching a single leg to a 6 year old requires a lot less technicality than teaching it at the University of Iowa wrestling program....

That work better for you?