A National Divorce

[jamil]

Bell Curve. 1994.

Oh. Then he must have accidentally misquoted the material. I recall the disparity between Black Americans and Whites is 1 standard deviation. I could be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure it was not 2.

 

[VulpesForge]

I don't know how this upsets anything in this thread. I had gotten that notion pretty firmly from your longer post above.

You may call me a pearl-clutching Karen all you wish, but I'm afraid we're simply too far divided to have a meaningful conversation. Discussions via text over the internet with faceless strangers are always difficult, and starting out from such vastly different points of view, there's way too much we would have to hash over before we could ever get to a point of meaningful discussion.

I can only say that, with every fiber of my being, I reject your pseudo-scientific brand of racism (if that word is too triggering for you, then feel free to substitute it with whatever word you think accurately describes your system of beliefs that clearly calls a particular race genetically inferior on moral matters in our country.)

I have no idea how I would even begin to articulate my reasons for this without bringing religion into it, though, so I'm afraid I'll simply have to leave this discussion alone.

I feel like you've missed the point entirely because the subject of race is a sensitive one.
I have never stated I believe one race is superior to another, in fact I've made arguments against that within the very statements you seem to be completely missing. I've stated what i.q. actually means, I've illuminated that it can be raised generationally, I've provided examples of races with higher i.q. than whites(which is what you're implying I believe the superior race to be) or examples that preform better in historically white countries like the Jamaicans in England. My point isn't that one race is superior to all other races, simply that American blacks haven't gotten there yet. Not even all blacks around the world, just ours. This could be due to a number of circumstances like the CIA proliferating crack through ghettos.
Still though, I have said the exact opposite of what you're implying, yet somehow people's minds go blank when race is mentioned and as if you have been beaten each and every time someone even thought you were implying you wouldn't love to have gang bangers as neighbors. Almost as if you could lose your job, your loan, your house, and have a mob summoned to your door for such a social faux pa. As though a little chime sounds and you plug your ears and scream racism. The brainwashing is so deep and complete you won't even consider the numbers. I say won't and not can't specifically.
I have been called much worse than racist by better men. I don't really care about the title, especially when it's thrown about too often to have any meaning anyway.
The Irish were drunken, illiterate, hill people until literacy was allowed to them. Then through the 18th and 19th centuries they became some of the foremost European scholars and historians.

At the end of the day, this forum and perhaps Americans in general just aren't ready to have a forward and honest conversation about race and the role it plays in culture. Maybe this is just too deep into a subject people are too uncomfortable with to even start to grasp. There has been so little intellectual engagement with these ideas here that the minutia of a national divorce shouldn't even be spoken of here as parody.

 

[VulpesForge]

Peace

 

[AndreusMaximus]

I feel like you've missed the point entirely because the subject of race is a sensitive one.
I have never stated I believe one race is superior to another, in fact I've made arguments against that within the very statements you seem to be completely missing. I've stated what i.q. actually means, I've illuminated that it can be raised generationally, I've provided examples of races with higher i.q. than whites(which is what you're implying I believe the superior race to be) or examples that preform better in historically white countries like the Jamaicans in England. My point isn't that one race is superior to all other races, simply that American blacks haven't gotten there yet. Not even all blacks around the world, just ours. This could be due to a number of circumstances like the CIA proliferating crack through ghettos.
Still though, I have said the exact opposite of what you're implying, yet somehow people's minds go blank when race is mentioned and as if you have been beaten each and every time someone even thought you were implying you wouldn't love to have gang bangers as neighbors. Almost as if you could lose your job, your loan, your house, and have a mob summoned to your door for such a social faux pa. As though a little chime sounds and you plug your ears and scream racism. The brainwashing is so deep and complete you won't even consider the numbers. I say won't and not can't specifically.
I have been called much worse than racist by better men. I don't really care about the title, especially when it's thrown about too often to have any meaning anyway.
The Irish were drunken, illiterate, hill people until literacy was allowed to them. Then through the 18th and 19th centuries they became some of the foremost European scholars and historians.

At the end of the day, this forum and perhaps Americans in general just aren't ready to have a forward and honest conversation about race and the role it plays in culture. Maybe this is just too deep into a subject people are too uncomfortable with to even start to grasp. There has been so little intellectual engagement with these ideas here that the minutia of a national divorce shouldn't even be spoken of here as parody.

There seems to have been a great deal of misunderstanding, both about what I was trying to say, and what I thought you were trying to say. Let me try again.

I approach this matter from a world view that views all human beings as having the same intrinsic dignity, and the same ability to choose right and wrong (though obviously, with varying degrees of intelligence to back that up.) This belief stems, primarily, from my deeper religious and philosophical beliefs regarding the nature of human beings.

No, I'm not saying something infantile, like that I refuse to believe any scientific studies on the matter because they run afoul of my preconceived notions. I'm simply saying that even if it can be scientifically proven that certain racial groups are less smart, or have a greater propensity for violence, or whatever, I would find it objectionable on moral grounds to even delve into that conversation, because the only possible motive or meaning I can see behind doing so would be to end up treating people differently based on their race, which is something I find morally objectionable.

Thus, if we were to have this conversation, we would first have to rewind to a discussion of morals, which we couldn't get into first without reconciling our differences regarding human nature, and whether or not there is a Divine creator, and all of that goes way beyond the scope of what I, personally, can see being meaningfully discussed in an online forum.

Yes, I am willing to have discussions on certain moral matters with others who don't share my religious beliefs. In some cases, I find those conversations productive, because I believe that we can reach the same conclusion regardless of whether or not we appeal to a morality based on belief in a higher power.

The matter of race is different to me, though, because I've seen that one's outlook is fundamentally changed based on whether or not one believes in a supernatural reason for man's existence. Believe it or not, I have been down this figurative path before, and I've simply come to the conclusion that if I were to approach this matter from a purely materialistic standpoint, there's no reason I can think of why I shouldn't entertain the same ideas you're putting forth, and quite likely come to the same or similar conclusions (though granted, at this point I don't fully know what those conclusions are, for you.) I'm sure there are some atheists/agnostics out there who would proffer non-religious objections to what you're saying, but I've never heard any that struck me as particularly logical, so I'll leave that to any of them to try, if they want.

So that's all there is to it. I have no logical basis for rejecting what you're saying without appealing to ideas that are rooted in belief in a Divine creator, so since we don't share that belief, I can't really offer anything that we could debate on from a common starting point.

Finally, I apologize for using the word "racist" when describing your beliefs. Upon further reflection, I realize that it is a word that has taken on far too many meanings, most all of them simply being emotionally provocative tools used to shut down the other side in a conversation without hearing what they have to say. So I shouldn't have used it, and I'm sorry.

 

[jamil]

Peace

Some things you might not have known about INGO, not having been involved in similar discussions. This group isn’t uncomfortable talking about race.

So when you get pushback for idea’s you express, you shouldn’t assume people are just ignorant, because you haven’t participated in the other dozen or so times we’ve discussed the same thing. I recall at least a few discussions about the bell curve. About strawman/steel man. BTDT. I don’t think anyone has tried to make a strawman of what you’re saying, but it’s more likely that you need to clarify your points.

And I’m still waiting to know the relevance to the point of red states having more crime/violence than blue states.

 

[jamil]

There seems to have been a great deal of misunderstanding, both about what I was trying to say, and what I thought you were trying to say.

See?

 

[dieselrealtor]

There is too much money to be made with racism for it to ever die, it will continue to be a wedge to divide us by some of the most evil among us.

 

[BigRed]

And some further discussion.

 

[Combat Engineer]

Wow what a read.I don't care about race.. tranny's reading period or any of this silly crap.The one thing I will say is when said young well armed man shows up at this fairly well prepped old vets house you won't get my bacon...you will get shot in the head by my wife my stepson or particularly me.