AAR: Mindset Laboratory's Intro to FoF and Dynamic FoF Scenarios Feb 18-19, 2012

[esrice]

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Mindset Lab | Real Training + Real Testing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNyTJZZkHkA



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What:
Mindset Laboratory's Intro to Force-on-Force and Dynamic Force-on-Force Scenarios
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When:
Saturday, February 18th and Sunday, February 19th, 2012
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Where:
Near Southwest side of Indianapolis, Indiana
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Who:
Shay VanVlymen (Shay) - Owner/Instructor
Joe - Assistant/Roleplayer
Jamie - Roleplayer
Nathan (TheAutomator) - Roleplayer
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Students:
esrice, Tactical Firearms Training, Heather, MangoTango, jdhaines, Scott, AGS Armament
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Why:
I chose to take these courses as I felt that force-on-force was a gap in my current training evolution. My background involves mostly live-fire firearms courses and I wanted to incorporate those skills into the dynamic decision making that force-on-force offers. As a perpetual student of "self-defense theory" and someone who carries a gun I was curious to test myself and preferred to "fail" in a training environment before making a fatal mistake in the real world.
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Training Day 1 - Intro to Force-on-Force
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Mindset Lab currently holds all of their courses in a large warehouse of a Monday-thru-Friday business. The classroom portion takes place in an office meeting room, and the scenarios are played out in the warehouse. That will all be changing soon however, as Mindset Lab will be expanding into a new space that promises to offer participants unmatched realism during scenario training. I don't want to give away any secrets, but I'm sure Shay will keep everyone updated as construction progresses.

I arrived at the training facility about 15 minutes before the 9am start time. I was traveling much lighter than I'm used to for "gun classes", as I only brought myself, pen/paper, some water, and a few snacks. Everything else I needed was provided by Mindset Lab-- blue gun, Raven holster and mag pouch, eyepro, protective helmet, neck guard, UTM Glock 17 and marking ammo.

Heck, they even provided breakfast.

As the other students arrived I recognized some familiar faces. AGS Armament (aka Gamez235) is a long-time INGOer and Advertising Supporter. The same can be said for attorney and ECPR operator Tactical Firearms Training. I had previously attended Mindset Lab's Flashlight Combatives course with MangoTango, and jdhaines I knew from previous training discussions here on the board. Scott and Heather were two new faces in the room and it was great meeting and training with them.

Class began with the all-important safety briefing. Shay detailed the weekend's medical action plan, and he designated a primary and secondary responder. For me, this is the mark of a squared-away outfit. If such a briefing is not present at the beginning of any class I begin to get suspicious.

We covered the 4 firearms safety rules and discussed their importance and relevance to training and to life. We were then given several force-on-force specific rules. Adherence to these would ensure that we got the most out of the weekend's training time.

The last class I took I made the "mistake" of leaving my carry pistol locked up in my vehicle. I did this because I was unsure how Shay would feel about bringing live weapons into the facility. I later learned that, as a true believer in personal defense, Shay preferred that we carry our pistols to class, as we would be given the opportunity to "de-gun" safely before entering the training facility. This also allowed us to remain armed during the lecture portion of the class and into lunch.

After the safety briefing we moved on to blocks on mindset and theory. As the company name implies, mindset is the cornerstone of every course. We covered the basic principles of personal defense, the body's psychological and physiological response to traumatic stress, the benefit of situational awareness, and Cooper's color codes.

We then had a great group discussion on making 911 calls. This may sound petty, but it played a vital role in the activities of both days. We learned what makes a good 911 call, what makes a bad 911 call, and how to perform them under stress. An added benefit to the day was having Attorney Guy Relford (Tactical Firearms Training) as a student in the classroom. This allowed everyone to hear a real-world opinion on the subject. He also gave several excellent examples of how 911 calls have played out in court. This was one skill that we later learned was much easier to talk about than to actually perform. And that theme continued throughout the weekend.

We broke for lunch and jdhaines and I grabbed some Subway down the street. TIP: Eat your lunch back in the classroom, as the lunchtime conversation is worth being apart of.

After lunch we prepped to enter the training facility to work on some specific skillsets-- specifically drawing from concealment and engaging a live human being.

But first we had to segregate all weapons from ourselves and our environment. Each of us was given a blue basket. In it we placed all guns, knives, pointy flashlights, live cell phones, and anything else we didn't want to bring into the training environment. The baskets were then locked in a separate office.

We were all issued Glock 19 blue guns and holsters/mag pouches from Raven Concealment Systems.

Then we buddied up and performed reciprocal patdowns. After that we were individually wanded.

Once everyone was deemed "clear" we headed to the warehouse.

We started by lining up and working on a "robust draw from concealment". This was broken down into 4 steps and demonstrated to us several times, and then we were able to practice it on our own while Shay and Joe critiqued and molded our draw at each step.

By the end of the session each student could, at the "Fight!" command, move off the line of attack, clear their cover garment, draw, and engage from a number of positions, from retention to full extension. We could also adjust our position in mid-fight and do it all in reverse to reholster.

Once we had the draw down we were introduced to the Glock 17T and UTM training ammunition. This system allowed us to engage actual live attackers without lethal injury. The rounds fired are small and leave lipstick-like marks.

UTM ammunition mimics real rounds closely in that it feeds like live ammo, it cycles the gun's action like live ammo, and it is loaded into magazines like live ammo. However, the Glock 17T is designed such that there is no possible way for it to accidentally fire live rounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAZHO3PKnm4

Our next exercise was 80% mental and 20% physical. The physical task was simple-- draw your gun, point it at a living and breathing human being, acquire a sight picture, and pull the trigger. That was the easy part. The mental task was the tougher part. We had to start getting used to seeing an actual person at the end of our gun. Doing this started to break down the mental barriers that we had all inadvertently built during "traditional" firearms training.

The video shows the scripted way we did this. The goal was to just draw and fire. The student at the other end was intentionally static, as they were there to experience what a "hit" felt like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbXFEfDFysI

Getting hit by the UTM round was similar to being hit by a low-powered BB. I felt it, it stung, but the pain was minimal and fleeting, and it never broke my skin through my clothing. I did end up with some red marks and a few tender spots at the end of the day. The marking paint is mostly dry and not messy. It left only small spots that were easily washable.

Here was a hit to jdhaines' arm through a thin long-sleeve t-shirt.

The next and final round for the day was to run each student through a dynamic scenario designed to test the principles we had learned in class. Although I will not divulge the specifics of the scenario, suffice to say that I learned a lot about myself by doing it. I performed well in some aspects and totally failed in others. There was room for improvement and I was eager to improve my performance on the next day's scenarios. I will say that had I not taken these classes back-to-back, I would've been disappointed by having that final scenario be my last.

We all gathered one last time back in the classroom and did one final debrief for the day. We recapped what he had learned and how we could apply them to our everyday lives. We returned our borrowed gear and were given back our real guns and gear.

We topped off the day with a class picture.

(L-R) Joe, jdhaines, esrice, MangoTango, Scott, Andy, Heather, AGS Armament, Shay, and Tactical Firearms Training.

Training Day 2 - Dynamic Force-on-Force Scenarios
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TD2 picked up right where TD1 left off. After a quick re-brief of the medical action plan we secured our live gear and donned the training gear. We were patted down, wanded, and then sequestered in the classroom.

One-by-one we were called up and taken into the training environment. We were given a set of instructions and then released to deal with each scenario as it unfolded. At the conclusion of the scenario we were given time to articulate our actions to Shay, who would in turn offer his critique.

After that we would return to the classroom where we would write down as many details we could about the scenario. This helped to not only begin to break down the scenarios in our own minds, but to help retain the information for our future benefit.

After every student had completed that particular scenario we would discuss the events and share our own individual experiences. What we quickly realized was that while the scenario remained the same, we each approached it with our own sets of past experiences, perspectives, and bias. These would often play a role in how we decided to handle each decision. While one student might've chosen A instead of B early in the scenario, another might've chosen B which sent them down an entirely different path with entirely different decisions to be made. My mind boggled at how 5 people could have 5 very different experiences when presented with the exact same scenario.

In an effort to maintain the integrity of this course and the scenarios presented therein, I will not give specific examples of the time I spent in this course. I would, however, like to share some of the many lessons I learned. Many of these are lifted directly from my course notes, and are in no particular order.

This was not a shooting class-- it was a decision-making class. Shay was not teaching us to shoot-- he was teaching us how to not get shot.

Talk. There is nothing wrong with talking during a self-defense situation. Talking and asking questions can help you make better decisions.

Things, important things, can be easily overlooked-- even when in Condition Yellow. Making decisions when you don't have all the facts can be fatal.

The only time I really "felt" getting shot was during the demonstration. When I took rounds later I had a vague notion that I had been shot, but I did not feel their sting.

I've often heard folks who successfully navigated a shooting incident say "Then the gun somehow just appeared in my hand". I now know exactly how they felt. I don't recall any specific gun handling or the 4-count drawstroke. I just remember deciding and then shooting. It was very surreal.

Overall I was very pleased with my gun handling abilities. I feel like my drawing and reloading had reached a point of unconscious competence.

I only saw my sights once-- during the first demonstration. One double-tap had rounds placed only about 1" apart, but they were lower than intended. It is my hope that I will be able to find my sights as I become more comfortable with shooting under stress (through continued training).

I was able to put several of my own personal "theories" to the test in this class. I now know that I have the mental and physical ability to make certain necessary decisions. I also know what I still have to work on.

Carry a flashlight with you everywhere. Everywhere.

There is more to gunfighting than guns. Your brain is a powerful weapon. Use it.

Those who think that the mere presence of a gun will keep you safe are wrong-- dead wrong. After this weekend I'm amazed at how many useless guns are kept in nightstands and glove boxes across America.

Tunnel vision is real. I experienced lots of "tunnel focus". Mentally and physically breaking out by turning my head and eyes was helpful.

I had to urinate after every scenario.

"Going to guns" is not always the answer. Sometimes it can make things worse.

Sometimes your number is called and there's nothing you can do about it-- gun or not.

Making a proper 911 call, even when that call is SUPER simple, can be difficult under stress. Practice it. Seriously.

Death is in the (overlooked) details.

Know all the facts before using lethal force. If you don't know all the facts, don't engage (even if its hard to do).

I know its cliche, but I actually saw the face of my wife and boys flash in my mind during one of the scenarios. It happened right after I made a wrong decision.

At the end of the weekend Shay warned us of the side effects of intense psychological stress. I felt fine. It didn't hit me until I got home to my wife and boys.


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I knew in writing this AAR that it was going to be difficult to describe the course in mere words. Many of the lessons I learned were intangible and can't be captured on paper. Even phrases like "mind-blowing" and "life-changing" will fall flat on the reader.

If you were interested enough to read these words, I have a challenge for you. Take this course. If you want to ease into it, then I would suggest taking Mindset Lab's Flashlight Combatives. It will get you comfortable with Shay and Mindset Laboratory. But after that, take this course. Take both Intro to Force-on-Force and Dynamic Force-on-Force Scenarios.

"But Evan, that is $350 for a 2-day course. That is expensive and I don't have the extra money to spend." As someone on a tight budget I TOTALLY understand this. So here is challenge #2.

If you don't have the money for this course, I challenge you to fund it by selling a gun.

Wait, WHAT?!?!

Yes, fund it by selling a gun from your collection. Your sacrifice of that 1 gun will ensure that you can actually be effective with the others you keep. Otherwise they are all useless. You don't need that extra J-frame anyway. Those two Hi-Points are just taking up valuable gun safe real estate. Spend your money on something that increases your value.

I don't mean to slip into total infomercial mode here, but I believe that this course material has relevance and necessity to 100% of INGO members. We carry guns to keep us safe and yet we lack a way to test ourselves. Now we have the ability to do just that!

As for me, I'm signed up for the remainder of Mindset Laboratory's offerings. I will be taking Firearms Combatives & Retention on March 18th, Low-light FoF Scenarios on April 22nd, and Vehicle FoF Scenarios on May 20th. I would love it if some inspired and motivated INGOers came out and took them with me.

I'd be glad to answer any questions you guys have here in this thread. As I'm still digesting everything from this weekend I might post a few updates as well. I know Shay can obviously answer any questions you might have as well.

 

[GBuck]

You still write the best AAR I have ever seen.

 

[OneBadV8]

Yeah yeah yeah, these types of classes are next on my list. I just hope the next dates stay open for me. Excellent write up as always esrice!

 

[esrice]

You still write the best AAR I have ever seen.

Thank you sir. It is my hope that my AARs help to "de-mystify" training enough that it motivates people to attend. I feel strongly that testing ourselves is a necessity, and I hope I can inspire others to try it out.

 

[GBuck]

I'm going to get the money together and sign up. Trying to get my LEO buddy to take it too.

 

[NIFT]

Cool!

Simunition vs. airsoft
Simunition hurts more twice: first time in the wallet and second time on impact!

Good stuff.

 

[jdhaines]

I wrote a quick AAR for another forum and at ESRICE's request, I'm going to copy it over here. It's not nearly as detailed as his AAR, but it's a little more about the things I felt after going through the class. Hope it helps a few people.
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I took a 2 day class this weekend in Indianapolis with Shay VanVlymen and Mindset Laboratory. Saturday was Intro to Force on Force, Sunday was Advanced Force on Force scenarios.

I'm not going to type out a crazy long AAR for this one, as you really can't give away the subject of the scenarios without ruining it for the future since Shay uses similar scenarios.

From what I gathered Shay is well known in many training circles and is sort of a "go-to" guy in mindset. He has a formal background in cognitive psychology and very obviously has both a passion and a knack for messing with your head. He and members of his staff have attended ECQC in the past and were familiar with the shivworks stuff we discuss on here. I will say here, that this is not a combatives class, there is essentially no physical demands whatsoever. I actually got hosed up a bit because I went hands on at one point but the role players aren't geared up for that. As long as you know that going in, it'll be fine.

Intro Class: To be totally honest, I felt (at the time) that this class was a little slow paced as some of it consisted of things I had seen in ECQC and other FoF classes. I asked him about skipping the intro class and he said that I needed to take the Intro class with him if I was to take the advanced class. Now that I've been through both...I fully agree with Shay and I understand why he requires that and wouldn't want it changed.

The intro class consisted of some classroom time discussing various topics of mindset, real life encounters, 911 calls, dealing with Police after an incident, etc. We had one of Indiana's most well known gun lawyers in the class and he fully supported everything Shay said. We then went into some practical training on things like drawstroke, etc. Shay uses UTM converted weapons (Glock 17s) and they work very much the same as the simunitions found in ECQC...except they seem to have a little better accuracy at distance. We all took a chance to get shot with one, and shoot someone else to see what that was like. There were a couple people who were fairly new to this whole area of training, and actually pulling the trigger on someone was eye opening for them.

The first day ended with a full on scenario. I won't explain what happened, but I will say that the events unfolded and transpired in such a way that I went into full adrenaline dump. The masks were gone, training aids were gone, and I honestly felt like I was in a life or death situation making life or death choices. EDIT: I described that poorly, I felt that the situation was real, we didn't actually remove any training equipment. I had all the physiological symptoms of adrenaline, my hands were shaking for about 3 hours afterward, I was restless and didn't sleep much that night, etc. It felt ****ing real and its something that I hadn't experienced before. Even Craig's class had adrenaline, but it was more from a fight. In this class, you do everything from starting with some mundane task and finishing with 911 calls on phones with operators and trying (horribly in my case) to render aid.

Advanced (2nd Day) Class: This class was essentially all scenarios. To get in this class you had to have already done the intro class. We only had 5 people doing the scenarios, and 1 of them ended up quitting after the 2nd or 3rd scenario because it got to be too much for that person. Essentially one person at a time is going and doing each situation, then you go back in a room and do an AAR and wait while other people go. There is a lot of down time, however with the stress peaks during the scenarios, its good to have the relaxing period...not to mention your nerves spike when you know its almost your turn again.

Again I won't give up details of the scenarios...but there were 6 in total. Each presented different situations, each felt 100% realistic starting from the beginning to the end, and each required decision making under extreme amounts of stress. The scenario role players were excellent at their jobs. Each time we came back the effects of the adrenaline and stress were messing with us differently. Most people were hitting the bathroom each time due to constrictions, etc. A huge thing that was figured out was I, personally, lose my ability to hear pretty quickly when stress starts to ramp up. He called it auditory exclusion and said it wasn't very rare. Its something I'll need to work through and use my visual cues to a higher level. That's a pretty important thing to know about myself.

Even today, a day after, I'm feeling the effects. After a day of 6 stressful situations in a row, you are completely spent and I felt more mentally tired than I can remember feeling ever before.

For someone who doesn't work in a field that puts them in these situations and allows some stress inoculation I would recommend this class (both days). He's working on a vehicle scenarios class. He's also got a low-light scenarios class and is working on a couple more with general scenarios so that previous students could come back.

For the price ($175 / day) it is right in line with other top tier classes, and it it deserves to be placed there. Shay knows many things, but he's focusing on one that is his niche...and he does it well. You'll be pissed at how much of an ******* he can be during these things because he knows how to get in your head. Normally, however, he's a pretty nice guy. If anyone else has questions, let me know.
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EDIT: This was a post I made in response to people asking about the non-combatives nature...as the other forum this was on is more physical/fighting focused.
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I'll spell it out better...I showed up with all of my training gear, including a big bag of boxing gloves, head gear, etc because I've been to a few and didn't know what I might need. He just kind of snickered when he saw it. It is not a combatives class. There is absolutely no HANDS ON of any kind. The only time someone touched me was about 20 seconds of demonstrating how to draw and hold your "two" while someone was sort of pushing you around a little bit. He uses the 4-count s'narc/gomez style drawstroke and just demonstrated that "2" is the retention position. That's it. 20 seconds of touching across 2 days. These classes aren't designed to be physical fighting classes...not really even shooting...more decision making where your gun is a possible tool.

Shay and his guys do some MMA, and have done ECQC and know the physical side of things...but this class isn't for that. When he says to show up with a cup, pen & paper, water and that's it...he means it. Now that I've been through it, I don't see that as a detriment. I was expecting some good old fashioned ECQC scenarios...and this wasn't it. They were, however, still completely capable of making grown men cry (I was close at one point...), a grown woman break down, a combat veteran kinda shaky at one point, etc. Don't take the lack of physical combat as a downside...it's just a fact of the way the class is designed.

I would fully recommend these classes and I'll be back for more at some point in the future.

 

[GuyRelford]

This class was fantastic - and covered essential elements of armed self-defense that simply can't be covered in live-fire courses. Shay is a tremendous instructor, and I plan to take every course that he offers.

I strongly recommend that anyone who carries a gun take this training.

And great job on the AAR, Evan!!

Guy

 

[esrice]

And great job on the AAR, Evan!!

Thank you sir. I'll now be looking toward your next offering of Indiana Gun Law.

 

[Shay]

It was even better than Cats. I want to see it again and again.



Seriously, thank you all for the reviews. And of course thank you to my role players. They make the class.

Keep in mind that a picture or video from one of my classes captures a moment in time without the surrounding context. Be careful trying to draw "tactical" conclusions about what is going on.

 

[esrice]

Keep in mind that a picture or video from one of my classes captures a moment in time without the surrounding context. Be careful trying to draw "tactical" conclusions about what is going on.

Don't lie, your finger pointing in the classroom pic was TOTALLY natural!

 

[the1kidd03]

Cool!

Simunition vs. airsoft
Simunition hurts more twice: first time in the wallet and second time on impact!

Good stuff.

You can say that again! I'm still getting "civilian credentials" in order to strike a deal with Simunition since their only registered guy is all the way down in Evansville.

Great write up though Esrice. I've always wondered about Shay's courses and you did an excellent job detailing some things without giving away the scenarios. I hope to one day bring a new realm of realism to training. Your write up pointed out to me something which I had not considered before. Being in a combat oriented MOS, you tend to lose sight of the fact that it can be such a psycological challenge for many people to even put sights on another person because of their prior training and natural tendencies. Thanks for the info guys, and great job Shay.

 

[esrice]

Being in a combat oriented MOS, you tend to lose sight of the fact that it can be such a psycological challenge for many people to even put sights on another person because of their prior training and natural tendencies.

As a Regular Guy, there does not exist a time when I can put my sights on another human being and pull the trigger. Even pointing my firearm at another human being is a violation of the safety rules that we've all ingrained into our minds from training.

That's why the exercise was so important and necessary. It broke through a mental barrier and allowed us to test ourselves in a controlled environment. Where else is this level of realism possible?

 

[the1kidd03]

As a Regular Guy, there does not exist a time when I can put my sights on another human being and pull the trigger. Even pointing my firearm at another human being is a violation of the safety rules that we've all ingrained into our minds from training.

That's why the exercise was so important and necessary. It broke through a mental barrier and allowed us to test ourselves in a controlled environment. Where else is this level of realism possible?

That was my point entirely and why I now think so highly of Shay's courses. Personally, I had not thought about that psychological barrier for those coming from a civilian/ target shooting background. I never realized how difficult that could be to overcome for someone who's spent their shooting carrier being harped on the four rules.

Currently, there isn't another place in this area for that level of realism. At least for civilians, I'm not sure what levels of training they offer on bases here as I've not been on a base in IN. That is exactly what I hope to change one day, but it takes a lot of time and money which I don't have at the moment. I'm one step closer to it after last weekend though.

 

[Shay]

You can say that again! I'm still getting "civilian credentials" in order to strike a deal with Simunition since their only registered guy is all the way down in Evansville.

Simunitions will not allow their products to be used to train anyone other than military or law enforcement.

 

[Shay]

I never realized how difficult that could be to overcome for someone who's spent their shooting carrier being harped on the four rules.

Harped on the four rules? They are in effect at all times. You don't take a break from them. You don't make exceptions.

 

[the1kidd03]

Simunitions will not allow their products to be used to train anyone other than military or law enforcement.

Yes, they do but you must attend their safety courses, buy their gear, carry a 2 million dollar liability policy, and posess SOME form of civilian firearms instructor certification although they don't care where it's from. It's called the "civilian range program." Unless of course their website and regional director is a liar.

 

[the1kidd03]

Harped on the four rules? They are in effect at all times. You don't take a break from them. You don't make exceptions.

Out of context. Of course you don't with LIVE ammo, but people revert back to all of that static range training when using things like Sims and training in FoF. Hence, why it creates the psychological barrier when presented with training like your courses.

 

[MangoTango]

Great write up esrice. You did a great job presenting the core element of the class without giving away the farm. Testing of your skills and decision making is so vitally important. Unless you have tested yourself under stress there is absolutely no way you know what you will really do. Assumptions are shattered such as: since I know right from wrong I will always make the right decision, if I am a law abiding citizen protecting myself or others witness, police and a jury will be on my side. What everyone sees is what really happened, what I see is really what happened. I will be able to access my pistol fast enough, I will use my front sights when I shoot, tactical reloads are the least of my concerns, carrying an extra magazine is overkill, I will walk away when I need to and intervene when I should (know when to hold'em and know when to fold'em), shooting someone is easy if they "deserve it", it's always easy to tell who the good guys are and who the bad guys are, every situation has a correct solution, all of my senses will be heightened if I am in a situation, range time is more valuable than any other training. Even military and law enforcement training creates a different lens to deal with civilian situations. These are just a few examples of assumptions that some participants had and were challenged with. Those who don't try it will never know. You don't know, what you don't know.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Yes, they do but you must attend their safety courses, buy their gear, carry a 2 million dollar liability policy, and posess SOME form of civilian firearms instructor certification although they don't care where it's from. It's called the "civilian range program." Unless of course their website and regional director is a liar.

This is a huge change from their well established policy. Those ****kers have sent cease & desist letters to more than one trainer that I know over violating their corporate policy.

I guess they are finally starting to worry with so many former Simunition employees having jumped ship and offering competing training &/or products.

Personally, I'm more interested in the ATK force-on-force products and training program than Sims these days.

ATK's Site

Ken Murrey's Site

Ken Murrey was one of the co-founder's of Simunitions.

The man behind the ATK product line, worked for Simunitions for more than a decade. I got to work with the ATK stuff a couple of years ago and it was pretty impressive. Compatible with Sims guns/conversion kits, but cleaner running, marked better, had slightly more recoil and better accuracy.