AAR: Mindset Laboratory's Intro to FoF and Dynamic FoF Scenarios Feb 18-19, 2012

[the1kidd03]

This is a huge change from their well established policy. Those ****kers have sent cease & desist letters to more than one trainer that I know over violating their corporate policy.

I guess they are finally starting to worry with so many former Simunition employees having jumped ship and offering competing training &/or products.

Personally, I'm more interested in the ATK force-on-force products and training program than Sims these days.

ATK's Site

Ken Murrey's Site

Ken Murrey was one of the co-founder's of Simunitions.

The man behind the ATK product line, worked for Simunitions for more than a decade. I got to work with the ATK stuff a couple of years ago and it was pretty impressive. Compatible with Sims guns/conversion kits, but cleaner running, marked better, had slightly more recoil and better accuracy.

Thanks for the info Paul. I'll look into their product too. It can't be more expensive than Simunition. I'm almost finished with meeting Sims requirements but since I wish to operate on extremely low budget I'll take a look at what they have to offer.

As far as violating their policy, would it have been due to any violation of their "resell terms" or something similar? They still due have somewhat stringent rules with the civilian program, but I don't know how they compare to the others.

We used Sims in MC. I knew there were competitors, but the only one I'd heard of was the one Shay uses which I thought were a subsidiary of Sims at one time. Those looked like a very different round design than Sims? The Sims I'm used to pretty much look like ordinary brass cased 9mm round trimmed down with a plastic insert. I'd post a pic, but I don't have a digital camera handy.

 

[Paul Gomez]

It can't be more expensive than Simunition.

As I recall, ATK was planning to retail their ammo at around half to three/fourth the cost of Sims.

As far as violating their policy, would it have been due to any violation of their "resell terms" or something similar? They still due have somewhat stringent rules with the civilian program, but I don't know how they compare to the others.

They used to have an extremely strict 'no civis, no how' policy.

From there website a few years back, under the Range Program tab:

Please note that this program is not suitable for training private citizens or recreational activities.

To be approved for the Range Program, you must fulfill the minimum requirements, which are;

* Proof of $1 million liability insurance annually
* Formal agreement to not train civilians with any of our products (signed by both parties)
* Formal agreement to not resell our products
* Mandatory attendance and successful completion of our Scenario Instructor Training Course every 3 years (fees: $550 for first class; $275 for subsequent classes)
* A minimum purchase to include 5 cases of FX® ammunition, 6 face protectors, and 6 throat protectors (approximate cost: $3500)

-----------------
UTM is a British-owned company. Sims is a Canadian-owned company. And the largest user of either product is the USA. Always frustrated me that there wasn't a decent US-based alternative. Now there is.

UTM is a unique design. Sims & the ATK product are interchangeable in guns converted for Simunitions use.

 

[the1kidd03]

As I recall, ATK was planning to retail their ammo at around half to three/fourth the cost of Sims.



They used to have an extremely strict 'no civis, no how' policy.

From there website a few years back, under the Range Program tab:

Please note that this program is not suitable for training private citizens or recreational activities.

To be approved for the Range Program, you must fulfill the minimum requirements, which are;

* Proof of $1 million liability insurance annually
* Formal agreement to not train civilians with any of our products (signed by both parties)
* Formal agreement to not resell our products
* Mandatory attendance and successful completion of our Scenario Instructor Training Course every 3 years (fees: $550 for first class; $275 for subsequent classes)
* A minimum purchase to include 5 cases of FX® ammunition, 6 face protectors, and 6 throat protectors (approximate cost: $3500)

-----------------
UTM is a British-owned company. Sims is a Canadian-owned company. And the largest user of either product is the USA. Always frustrated me that there wasn't a decent US-based alternative. Now there is.

UTM is a unique design. Sims & the ATK product are interchangeable in guns converted for Simunitions use.

Yeah, I remember Sims having that strict policy. ATK seems to still have that same policy by their website?

 

[VERT]

Great AAR! I was really impressed with the class I took with Shay. Force on force is definitely on my short list of want to attend. And yes I would gladly sell or trade a pistol force price of admission.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Yeah, I remember Sims having that strict policy. ATK seems to still have that same policy by their website?

If you click on the Training link, you'll be taken to information about the Instructor course which is open to LEO, Mil & Private Sector trainers. I think the main site is not exactly current on that topic. The guy behind the product R&D is the guy behind the Instructor training and he is pretty open to the idea of getting competent people trained up.

 

[shooter521]

Why Evan, you sound like me after I took my first FoF course back in 200-something. Seriously though, dude, GREAT AAR. It IS a life-changer, isn't it?

It has been awhile since I've done any FoF work, and I'm sorely due for a refresher. I'll be sure to pry some additional details about the class(es) out of you when next we meet.

 

[the1kidd03]

If you click on the Training link, you'll be taken to information about the Instructor course which is open to LEO, Mil & Private Sector trainers. I think the main site is not exactly current on that topic. The guy behind the product R&D is the guy behind the Instructor training and he is pretty open to the idea of getting competent people trained up.

Roger that. Thanks again Paul.

 

[Shay]

Out of context. Of course you don't with LIVE ammo, but people revert back to all of that static range training when using things like Sims and training in FoF. Hence, why it creates the psychological barrier when presented with training like your courses.

The true problem stems from people not understanding the actual four cardinal firearm safety rules.

 

[Shay]

Yes, they do but you must attend their safety courses, buy their gear, carry a 2 million dollar liability policy, and posess SOME form of civilian firearms instructor certification although they don't care where it's from. It's called the "civilian range program." Unless of course their website and regional director is a liar.

Ah. I stand corrected. As Paul stated already, this is a recent change and a 180 degree shift from their previous long-standing policy.

Two or three years ago I got into a yelling match on the phone with the VP of Sales for Simunitions over their policy of not allowing "civilians" to be trained with their products.

I'm glad to hear that they have changed, but I still will not purchase or use their products while alternatives exist.

 

[Fenway]

Great write up as usual Evan! This must have training if you carry a gun! If you want to test yourself under stress and make mistakes with a gun but be able to learn from them and go home.... This is it!

http://youtu.be/m1Xr8LK_lEo

 

[the1kidd03]

The true problem stems from people not understanding the actual four cardinal firearm safety rules.

How so?

In a combative situation the four (five depending on what you teach) rules are still present but your target has become a living human being. The rules still apply as you are concerned with the safety of individual bystanders, but not the "target"(attacker.) People seem to associate the rules with the intent to keep firearms oriented away from people all together, rather than simply oriented away from "non-targets." I don't know if I'm putting into words what I mean to convey as well as I would like to, but is this basically what you're referring to?

 

[the1kidd03]

Ah. I stand corrected. As Paul stated already, this is a recent change and a 180 degree shift from their previous long-standing policy.

Two or three years ago I got into a yelling match on the phone with the VP of Sales for Simunitions over their policy of not allowing "civilians" to be trained with their products.

I'm glad to hear that they have changed, but I still will not purchase or use their products while alternatives exist.

Yeah, I hated the previous rules too. I tried to contact them about offering training to civilian markets for some friends of mine in the contracting industry back in '07.

for you on trying to act against the policy so adamently. Perhaps your actions contributed to their change of heart here in the US.

 

[Shay]

How so?

In a combative situation the four (five depending on what you teach) rules are still present but your target has become a living human being. The rules still apply as you are concerned with the safety of individual bystanders, but not the "target"(attacker.) People seem to associate the rules with the intent to keep firearms oriented away from people all together, rather than simply oriented away from "non-targets." I don't know if I'm putting into words what I mean convey as well as I would like to, but is this basically what you're referring to?

Exactly. People recite bastardized versions of the 4 rules all the time.

Things like, "Don't point guns at people." Or, "Keep your gun pointed down range." Or, "Point your gun at the berm."

That isn't what the rules say. Some people need to have guns pointed at them. After all, that's the point of carrying one for defense, right?

You and I seem to be saying the same thing, just slightly different ways.

Every student in my IFoF class purposefully shoots someone and gets shot. Both are very important psychological lessons.

 

[the1kidd03]

Exactly. People recite bastardized versions of the 4 rules all the time.

Things like, "Don't point guns at people." Or, "Keep your gun pointed down range." Or, "Point your gun at the berm."

That isn't what the rules say. Some people need to have guns pointed at them. After all, that's the point of carrying one for defense, right?

You and I seem to be saying the same thing, just slightly different ways.

Every student in my IFoF class purposefully shoots someone and gets shot. Both are very important psychological lessons.

It's that psychological lesson which Esrice was able to communicate so effectively in his AAR that I had not thought about before. I hadn't thought about the constant badgering the 4 rules into people's heads forming that sort of "psychological barrier" in the fashion like he's described. You don't have that "luxury" of thinking about it in the combat arms industry and so I hadn't even thought of that being a challenge for so many civilian shooters. Excellent training Shay

 

[cedartop]

I would like to jump in here and compliment Shay on his class. As someone who has attended and helped teach FOF classes, I am pleased to see this get a lot of exposure, it is very important stuff. It sounds like Shay does a great job of knowing what works to stress individuals. This is a critical part of this type of training. Many people mistakenly think that if anything ever happens, they are just going to draw their gun and take care of the problem. There CAN be so much more to it than that.