Alabama, Senate Candidate Moore and Age of Consent Laws

[Libertarian01]

Respectfully, I would put forward that there have ALWAYS been false accusation and severe repercussions. We need only look at the Salem witch trials or Rosewood or the Crystal Magnum and the Duke Lacrosse team to know this.

The difference is that today people who have been abused by extremely powerful folks are now being taken seriously. We also know that it is more likely that there is some truth to the matter when we can find and outcry witness going back to the time of the event.

Understanding the psychology of victims of sexual abuse has much increased, and the tolerance of abusers has declined.

What I find problematic is that we are crossing a line between butt grabbing, which is reprehensible and should not be tolerated, with actual sexual assault, which should result in free room & board from the DOC. Both are bad, but not on the same level of depredation.

Of course there always have been and will be false accusations about a variety of crimes. The difference today is that the default setting is changing where we don't tolerate the accuser being drug through the mud and the accused being able to poo-poo it all away.

The real tragedy is that many corporate cultures and society have allowed such abuse to run rampant and grow.

Hopefully today when someone abuses and underling we will nip it in the bud.

Regards,

Doug

 

[miguel]

Twenty-one? Seriously? There are reasonable arguments to be made about changing the age to 18, but to me, there is something very creepy about a man thinking that he gets to make the decision on who a grown woman (18 and older) can sleep with. So you own your sister's/daughter's body until you see fit?

I have bad news for you. They are letting them drive in Saudi Arabia now.

They're soft. #winning

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Mike Pence and his stodgy rules about when and how to be around the opposite sex looks like pretty good advice now....if you never want these accusations leveled at you.

Yeah, older men going after younger women seems odd to our sensibilities. If I were a parent, I'd never allow my daughter to be so involved. To be honest...knowing how political smear campaigns work, especially against people that have personality traits that don't endear people to them and a willing and complicit news cabal that sense a feeding frenzy of a political opponent, I'm dubious the light that is being cast on Moore is entirely accurate.

Public opinion has largely turned against him. There's that cynical, contrarian side of me that's just wanting to go along with the herd.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Not defending his actions if true, but I can't help but think that the media is thinking, "Whew! We finally found one on their side!"

 

[BugI02]

Mike Pence and his stodgy rules about when and how to be around the opposite sex looks like pretty good advice now....if you never want these accusations leveled at you.

Yeah, older men going after younger women seems odd to our sensibilities. If I were a parent, I'd never allow my daughter to be so involved. To be honest...knowing how political smear campaigns work, especially against people that have personality traits that don't endear people to them and a willing and complicit news cabal that sense a feeding frenzy of a political opponent, I'm dubious the light that is being cast on Moore is entirely accurate.

Public opinion has largely turned against him. There's that cynical, contrarian side of me that's just wanting to go along with the herd.

I am personally troubled by this Moore thing. Based on my own reading, I think he's a creeper but I am also uncomfortable with giving any group from any part of the political spectrum a weapon to use to overwrite the peoples choice (this was/is being tried in Trump's case)

I think the best advice is to let the people of Alabama decide and accept the results, just as I wish people would accept the results in the recent presidential election. I definitely think all a candidates putative flaws should be on display, with perhaps a little higher evidentiary standard where Trump is concerned; but if the people of a state wish to elect a candidate like Moore despite their doubts, the will of the people should be the end of it

They had us accept Clinton as a [STRIKE]carpetbagger[/STRIKE] senator for NY, they need to learn the discretion they have required from us again and again

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

There should be an other category .

I think there might need to be some kind of IQ / maturity test kinda thing given before charges get filed and arrests happen .

I think my parents met when he was 29 and she was 17-18 , they were married 31 years .

I know kids aren't as mature as " way back when " but I don't think there's anything magical about an arbitrary number either , barring the obvious 20 year old with a 10 year old type scenario .

 

[BugI02]

IMO they have a valid point. Either everybody is innocent until proven guilty, or no one is

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/nov/15/roy-moore-how-about-joe-biden/

Roy Moore? How about Joe Biden

 

[SheepDog4Life]

I believe that the primary difference of a large age gap has to do with a difference of power. The older person is more experienced, has more money, and is generally more sure of themselves than a younger person. There are exceptions, of course, but that is the broad brush.

A 35 year old will be more established, have more money, and have 17 years of experience over an 18 year old. When a girl who is 16 dates someone within 3 or 4 years of her age the distribution of power is much more balanced. Both have generally the same amount of life experience, possibly financial parity, etc. While it is true that someone from a wealthy family could have far more experience and resources than a middle class or poor family, that difference in and of itself could create a significant imbalance of power, but other factors remain on parity.

Add to this difference in power the issue of increased authority, such as a school teacher, a police officer, a district attorney, etc. Then the balance is skewed exponentially.

Younger people are already at a disadvantage of knowing how to deal with conflict, understanding their rights, knowing who to go to for help, etc. They are vulnerable simply due to a lack of life experience. However, when a 19 year old dates a 16 year old the power difference, while there, is significantly less than a 15 or 20 year age gap.

I agree with all of the above, that the age difference translates into taking advantage of naivete, inexperience and the hard to control new hormones coursing through newly post-puberty teens.

I do, however, think that there is a significant difference between a HS Freshman and a HS Senior. Even though I graduated young (17), I would never have given a second's thought to dating or pursuing a Freshman, even though some were only a year younger than me. Ditto a HS Sophomore (most are or turn 16) and someone a year or two removed from HS.

My ex was quite a bit more permissive than I was, but thankfully we agreed on a few things:

1) When the girls were Freshmen, no "car" dates. They attracted a lot of attention from boys, including Seniors. The rule was that they were welcome to come visit at our house, come to dinner, watch TV/movies, etc. Interestingly enough, NOT A SINGLE SENIOR did so, but quite a few more "age appropriate" boys did. As a result, my daughters first experiences with HS boys were respectful and established norms that did not revolve solely around sex. So they were well equipped to recognize the boys who "only wanted one thing."

2) Any boy who wanted to date our daughters needed to come to the front door and come in for a few minutes and meet her parents, answer a few questions that mostly revolved around their who their parents and family were (and principally established that one of us KNEW one of their parents, uncles, aunts, lol), where they were going and what time curfew was.

As a result, my daughters' first experiences with HS boys were respectful and established norms that did not revolve solely around sex. So they were well equipped to recognize the boys who "only wanted one thing."

I believe Roy Moore was a sexual predator. He was very intelligent and understood exactly what kind of power he wielded by being a district attorney and knew how to use that to charm and later, intimidate. He isn't unique, there is nothing special about him. He is simply one of the many cockroaches that survived and thrived using and abusing a system designed to protect those in power, as all power systems do. The Catholic church protected priests, the democratic party protects democrats, the republican party protects republicans, the blue line exists, fraternities protect their own, nobody likes a rat, etc etc etc.

There are three (3) basic differences today. Number one is that our society is more understanding, educated, and sympathetic to the victims of abuse (sexual, power, and otherwise.) Number two is that our society is far less tolerant of the abuse of power. And number three is that the fall of Harvey Weinstein has symbolized that no matter how powerful a person is they can be brought low. This is a tremendous morale boost to those who have remained silent, knowing that no longer will they be ignored by society when they speak against someone of power and influence.

The times, they are a changin'.

Regards,

Doug

Another change is the recognition that girls/women need to be educated every bit as much as boys/men, and that a HS diploma became the absolute minimum a few decades ago, only to be replaced by some sort of training/apprenticeship, Associates degree or college degree.

Not completing HS is a life-altering stigma.

But it is only a matter of time until those so inclined realize that an accusation of sexual malfeasance never has to be proven, is difficult if not impossible to disprove, and can be used to derail the career of almost any politician

The genie is out of that bottle

That has always been a problem, as others have noted. Also, the "setup" is a "thing" for the "powerful".

But what has always been a problem until now has been that REAL VICTIMS of harassment and abuse have been reluctant to come forward. It is a very real problem with rape and sexual assault as well. It does not need a redefining of what those terms mean, nor standards of evidence, it needs support of real victims to come forward so these sleeze-balls can find themselves behind bars at the earliest possible moment before compiling a long list of victims. Also, "keeping it real" for women that men, in general, are bigger and stronger than they are and that they should be very aware about who they are alone with, and that sexual predators sometimes come in suits and have jobs like Deputy DA.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

There should be an other category .

I think there might need to be some kind of IQ / maturity test kinda thing given before charges get filed and arrests happen .

I think my parents met when he was 29 and she was 17-18 , they were married 31 years .

I know kids aren't as mature as " way back when " but I don't think there's anything magical about an arbitrary number either , barring the obvious 20 year old with a 10 year old type scenario .

Just to be clear, the current law and any changes in age of consent are about a relationship becoming sexual absent marriage.

In all of my life experience, if the boy/man isn't willing to wait for sex, isn't patient, it isn't "relationship" material, it's "casual" and only about "one thing".

I'm just guessing, but my guess is that your dad and your grandfather had a very serious, "so just what are your intentions with my daughter?" discussion. Which, he obviously was convincing and sincere. Lol!

The key point being that the judgement of mature adults was involved, not solely that of a 17 year old, however mature and wise she might have been compared to the average at that time.

 

[BrettonJudy7]

This is no doubt a smear campaign put together by the opposite party. For the timing to come out as it did, and the amount of women, it is too similar to a set up. Having realized that, it doesn't mean that these accusations are false. These could still very well be true, and I'm not convinced that Roy Moore is innocent either, but there is no evidence that substantiates it is there? I haven't heard much about it since last week, so I don't know if there is any convicting evidence other than the word of the women.

I would never defend these actions at all, and if it is true, then Moore should step down and answer for his actions, but the Republican party has already decided that he is guilty, along with everyone else. Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney say that "innocent until proven guilty", does not apply to government officials, but the claims alone should have them step down. What if the claims aren't true though? He would have stepped down for nothing. We will probably never know the truth either. Unless there is photo evidence, or there is some sort of recording, Roy Moore will always deny it, and the women will always accuse him.

I do agree though with the original post, that age of consent should be 18, as it is with voting, and military service. An adult that is 30 years old can have an impactful influence on a 16 year old, and can use that influence to persuade. I'm not saying that an 18 year old mind is the most enforced, and matured, but it is at least a much more mature mind than a 16 year old in. Not in all cases, but I would argue that it's the majority. There is a big gap between 16 and 18, just as there is also a big gap between 21 and 18.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

This is no doubt a smear campaign put together by the opposite party. For the timing to come out as it did, and the amount of women, it is too similar to a set up. Having realized that, it doesn't mean that these accusations are false. These could still very well be true, and I'm not convinced that Roy Moore is innocent either, but there is no evidence that substantiates it is there? I haven't heard much about it since last week, so I don't know if there is any convicting evidence other than the word of the women.

The reporters absolutely went looking for this in order to influence the election. But, IMO, that doesn't influence at all the truthfulness (or not) of the allegations. And, it is news... though I doubt they would be as eager to pursue such allegations against a Democrat (witness the killing of earlier stories about Weinstein, a powerful Dem money raiser)

I would never defend these actions at all, and if it is true, then Moore should step down and answer for his actions, but the Republican party has already decided that he is guilty, along with everyone else. Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney say that "innocent until proven guilty", does not apply to government officials, but the claims alone should have them step down. What if the claims aren't true though? He would have stepped down for nothing. We will probably never know the truth either. Unless there is photo evidence, or there is some sort of recording, Roy Moore will always deny it, and the women will always accuse him.

With the number of women coming forward, who were "girls" at the time, I believe the majority of the allegations are true. Add on top of that the age difference with his wife, 14 years, who he married when he was, if my math is correct, 38 and she was 24, and ages 36 and 22 when they first met.

So, on the basis of the number of believable then 16- and 17- year olds coming forward, I would never support nor vote for him as I find that repugnant and predacious.

As far as the law goes, though, there is only instance that could be illegal, the claim of groping a 14 year old over her bra and panties, which, if true, is sexual assault.

I do agree though with the original post, that age of consent should be 18, as it is with voting, and military service. An adult that is 30 years old can have an impactful influence on a 16 year old, and can use that influence to persuade. I'm not saying that an 18 year old mind is the most enforced, and matured, but it is at least a much more mature mind than a 16 year old in. Not in all cases, but I would argue that it's the majority. There is a big gap between 16 and 18, just as there is also a big gap between 21 and 18.

Through the discussion on this thread, I've moderated my original views slightly in that 16 to 20 might be not necessarily be de facto predatory, but that at 21, your sex partner should at least have turned 18.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

I'm very surprised that, according the the current poll results, 46% of INGO supports the current 16 year old age of consent or lower. So, this has been enlightening. Is it a more broad definition of closeness in age, or are you fine with a 55 year old having sex with a 16 year old?

I know it's a bit extreme, but what is your answer to the following hypothetical scenario:

At the end of your daughter's sweet 16 birthday party, she tells you, bags in hand, that she is going away for the weekend with her "boyfriend", just as a 40 year old drives up in his brand new 'vette?

 

[BugI02]

His corvette better be capable of speeds faster than 1150fps

 

[Route 45]

If my daughter decides, at any age, to date someone who spent $55,000+ on a GM product, then I have failed as a parent.

 

[Libertarian01]

In regards to false accusations, Irony, thy name is Kevin!

WARNING: LANGUAGE!!!

[video=youtube;psNuJuaYqVU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psNuJuaYqVU[/video]

 

[SheepDog4Life]

His corvette better be capable of speeds faster than 1150fps

EXACTLY!

If my daughter decides, at any age, to date someone who spent $55,000+ on a GM product, then I have failed as a parent.

ROFLMAO!

 

[hoosierdoc]

I'm saying a woman's age of consent for sex has nothing to do with how old her suitor is. And vice versa. Pretty straight forward

So basically you are saying the combined wisdom and maturity of two Sophomores in High School is enough for them to legally consent to do the Horizontal Hulu with each other? But enter someone who is 20+ suddenly they lose all ability to think and make mature decisions?

While I agree the dirty old man is just downright creepy I am not sure I follow your logic with regard to being able to consent. Then there is the cougar teachers preying on young men which we all may giggle about but is equally manipulative. The trouble is kids are going to have sex and there is not a law in the world that is going to stop them. Being practical 16 is probably the realistic age of consent although I would prefer to see it higher. I do like the idea of the Romeo exception if the age of consent were bumped to 17 or 18.

Perhaps if the parents of these young girls would not dress their daughters like whores and teach them some respect for themselves this would not be as big of an issue.

 

[junk]

my only problem with the "Moore " issue is.... why did it take 40 years for these women to come forward ? Just 4 weeks before the election . He has been in public office the whole time . I'm not saying he's innocent , just curious about the timing .

 

[Kutnupe14]

my only problem with the "Moore " issue is.... why did it take 40 years for these women to come forward? Just 4 weeks before the election . He has been in public office the whole time . I'm not saying he's innocent , just curious about the timing .

No one was actively looking for them. Being from Alabama, myself, I can tell you that these women would have been slut shamed, by most. People would have talked about how they dressed, how "fast" they were, and generally just speak badly about them. Given the immense power of Roy Moore, and positive opinions that people had of him, that's not a winning battle, unless you had a powerful backer willing to hear your story.... like the media.
However, the search for these women undoubtedly is related to painting Moore in a bad light due to the upcoming election.

 

[halfmileharry]

No one was actively looking for them. Being from Alabama, myself, I can tell you that these women would have been slut shamed, by most. People would have talked about how they dressed, how "fast" they were, and generally just speak badly about them. Given the immense power of Roy Moore, and positive opinions that people had of him, that's not a winning battle, unless you had a powerful backer willing to hear your story.... like the media.
However, the search for these women undoubtedly is related to painting Moore in a bad light due to the upcoming election.

Pretty much spot on if you know the south. Women still need to stay retain appearances and "Good ol' boys" politics can pretty much squash anything that might cost them a single vote.
As far as the "age of consent" goes, I left it at 16.
My reasoning is that women have been having babies and getting married much younger for all time. I think the urge to raise the age limit is more for society's feel good/do right world.
I don't think a particular # is going to really change a lot.
From an older guy standpoint.... I see a lot of little girls that get into life changing trouble. I'd raise the age to 55 so they gain some common sense before they go crazy.

- - - Updated - - -

No one was actively looking for them. Being from Alabama, myself, I can tell you that these women would have been slut shamed, by most. People would have talked about how they dressed, how "fast" they were, and generally just speak badly about them. Given the immense power of Roy Moore, and positive opinions that people had of him, that's not a winning battle, unless you had a powerful backer willing to hear your story.... like the media.
However, the search for these women undoubtedly is related to painting Moore in a bad light due to the upcoming election.

Pretty much spot on if you know the south. Women still need to stay retain appearances and "Good ol' boys" politics can pretty much squash anything that might cost them a single vote.
As far as the "age of consent" goes, I left it at 16.
My reasoning is that women have been having babies and getting married much younger for all time. I think the urge to raise the age limit is more for society's feel good/do right world.
I don't think a particular # is going to really change a lot.
From an older guy standpoint.... I see a lot of little girls that get into life changing trouble. I'd raise the age to 55 so they gain some common sense before they go crazy.