American Taliban' fighter to be released after 17 years

[DoggyDaddy]

The same can't be said for the courts.
Courts have the burden of proof, and several layers of checks & reviews.
You argument/case had better be solid or the appeals process will cook off the politics, money & corruption as you go up the appeals process.

Besides, your (or mine) opinion means nothing,
My chosen profession was to be a Marine, secondly was a machinist.
I have to assume they learned as much about the law in collage and practicing as I did about being a field Marine or being a machinist.
It's not exactly the local lawyer getting elected circuit Court judges we are talking about here...



That thought crossed my mind also, but not as a mistake or shortcoming on the part of the legal system...

He won't be able to burp without a dozen intelligence agencies knowing what he had for dinner,
And he does know the catch phrases that might get him in contact with ISIS leaders/sympathathizers, both here and over there.

He might actually lead someone to a spot where a 500 pound bomb will do some good.
After 17 years will anyone remember or trust him. It's a good bet there isn't anyone alive that remembered him, but he might create chatter that produces Intel...

Your earlier comment got me to thinking... As a Marine, hypothetically speaking, let's say your squad gets attacked by a group of 10 enemy combatants (terrorists), all firing at you and your fellow Marines. One of your squad members is shot and killed. You have the chance to take out all 10 enemies. Do you really try and decide which one pulled the trigger that fired the fatal shot and only shoot that one, or to you just kill them all and let God sort it out? My personal preference would be for the latter (but I never served in the military).

 

[IndyDave1776]

The same can't be said for the courts.
Courts have the burden of proof, and several layers of checks & reviews.
You argument/case had better be solid or the appeals process will cook off the politics, money & corruption as you go up the appeals process.

Besides, your (or mine) opinion means nothing,
My chosen profession was to be a Marine, secondly was a machinist.
I have to assume they learned as much about the law in collage and practicing as I did about being a field Marine or being a machinist.
It's not exactly the local lawyer getting elected circuit Court judges we are talking about here...



That thought crossed my mind also, but not as a mistake or shortcoming on the part of the legal system...

He won't be able to burp without a dozen intelligence agencies knowing what he had for dinner,
And he does know the catch phrases that might get him in contact with ISIS leaders/sympathathizers, both here and over there.

He might actually lead someone to a spot where a 500 pound bomb will do some good.
After 17 years will anyone remember or trust him. It's a good bet there isn't anyone alive that remembered him, but he might create chatter that produces Intel...

Spoken like a true subject. Nice.

You may believe that you are not qualified to think and are obligated not only to conform but to accept as right and proper what your "betters" tell you to do and think. Please do not try to project this onto citizens who value the principle that political power is derived from the consent of the governed rather than blindly following self-styled patricians as serfs would do.

 

[Vigilant]

My guess is JWL, is gonna slip his overseers and next we see him will be back in a conflict zone taking up arms against us yet again. Not like it has t happened before?

 

[IndyDave1776]

My guess is JWL, is gonna slip his overseers and next we see him will be back in a conflict zone taking up arms against us yet again. Not like it has t happened before?

 

[JeepHammer]

Spoken like a true subject. Nice.

You may believe that you are not qualified to think and are obligated not only to conform but to accept as right and proper what your "betters" tell you to do and think. Please do not try to project this onto citizens who value the principle that political power is derived from the consent of the governed rather than blindly following self-styled patricians as serfs would do.

The courts are the few places in government that have to explain their decisions, base their decisions on previous standing law.
Actual, vetted evidence is presented, both sides get to explain their take on said evidence, and a jury of 'Peers' decide the question of guilt or innocence.
Every single word is recorded, reviewed, and in some cases mistakes are found and even jury decisions are overturned.
It can't get more transparent than that.

I can't help you don't understand how the process works, but you would get full benefit of the process, including defense council were you to be charged with something.
Everything would be recorded, you get copies of everything, the prospective evidence would be presented to defense, and you would have a chance to vet/argue that evidence before a jury of your 'Peers' ever saw it in court.
If convicted, you have numerous appeals to correct any issues about anything in the process.
Even though you don't believe in that process, generations of scholars have refined it to be transparent, and ultimately your 'Peers' will decide your guilt or innocence.
(And again, I point out all this was available in schools from 6-12 grade, I don't know how you missed it)

I'm not a raving anti-government conspiracy theory believer...
The courts are way more transparent than any other branch of government, and while there can be bad actors, it's not nearly as common as you would have people believe.

As for 'Subject'...
Not in the way you throw it as an insult.
I'm subject to the same rules & laws as anyone else, and that's the way the Constitution and courts are supposed to work.
I don't believe I'm 'Special' and I can run around doing what ever idiot idea crosses my mind.
I'm 'Joe Average', no better or now worse than any other working stiff.
That saves me a lot of time & energy when my ego tries to get way ahead of my education or rational thinking.
It's not about ME, it's about WE THE PEOPLE...
My idiot ideas and over inflated ego don't trump the Constitution or rule of law.
(Again, taught from 6th-12th grade in school)

Your earlier comment got me to thinking... As a Marine, hypothetically speaking, let's say your squad gets attacked by a group of 10 enemy combatants (terrorists), all firing at you and your fellow Marines. One of your squad members is shot and killed. You have the chance to take out all 10 enemies. Do you really try and decide which one pulled the trigger that fired the fatal shot and only shoot that one, or to you just kill them all and let God sort it out? My personal preference would be for the latter (but I never served in the military).

Since you weren't military,
When fired upon the military will return fire.
To shoot someone that surrenders is murder, and our military as a whole does NOT commit murder.

Enemy combatants aren't always 'Terrorists'.
Terrorists aren't always engaged by the military, for example the idiots that start shooting in this country.

In some cases, the military will NOT return fire, a 'For Instance' is a gunman in a crowd of civilians.
It sucks, but the military has training & discipline and doesn't 'Spray & Pray'.
They don't mow down women, children, old men just because the situation sucks.

It took a LONG time for our leadership to designate marksmen and deploy snipers so the bad actor could be dispatched without shooting up crowds and racking up civilian body count.
The Israelies had deployed sharp shooters & snipers in similar situations since the 70's, our leaders didn't take a lesson...
And they still haven't learned with drone strikes, it's a new toy for them and they will have to learn the hard way.
The "Kill Em All, Let God Sort Em Out" mentality is what got us into deep s**t in the first place...
Kill civilians and you make a ton of new combatants, everyone that knew and loved them.
Nothing happens in a vacuum...

You might also not know the military doesn't keep homicidal psychopaths, most are vetted out early on.
Military is there to restore peace & security, and if the bad guys want to challenge that authority, then we deal with them on their level.
We aren't there for genocide, we are there to stop genocide.
You know, the guys chanting "Kill Em All, Let God Sort Them Out", the guys that saw off prisoners heads or burn people alive in a cage, or herd Jews and anyone else they don't like into gas chambers...

And when you question why our military members didn't execute a wounded, helpless enemy combatant instead of taking him prisoner, or murder him without a trial, you do the entire military a huge disservice...
You crap on everything every veteran & current military member fought & died for.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

The courts are the few places in government that have to explain their decisions, base their decisions on previous standing law.
Actual, vetted evidence is presented, both sides get to explain their take on said evidence, and a jury of 'Peers' decide the question of guilt or innocence.
Every single word is recorded, reviewed, and in some cases mistakes are found in even jury decisions are overturned.
It can't get more transparent than that.

I'm not a raving anti-government conspiracy theory believer...
The courts are way more transparent than any other branch of government, and while there can be bad actors, it's not nearly as common as you would have people believe.



Since you weren't military,
When fired upon the military will return fire.

Enemy combatants aren't always 'Terrorists'.

In some cases, the military will NOT return fire, a 'For Instance' is a gunman in a crowd of civilians.
It sucks, but the military has training & discipline and doesn't 'Spray & Pray'.
They don't mow down women, children, old men just because the situation sucks.

It took a LONG time for our leadership to designate marksmen and deploy snipers so the bad actor could be dispatched without shooting up crowds and racking up civilian body count.
The Israelies had deployed sharp shooters & snipers in similar situations since the 70's, our leaders didn't take a lesson...
And they still haven't learned with drone strikes, it's a new toy for them and they will have to learn the hard way.
The "Kill Em All, Let God Sort Em Out" mentality is what got us into deep s**t in the first place...
Kill civilians and you make a ton of new combatants, everyone that knew and loved them.
Nothing happens in a vacuum...

You might also not know the military doesn't keep homicidal psychopaths, most are vetted out early on.
Military is there to restore peace & security, and if the bad guys want to challenge that authority, then we deal with them on their level.
We aren't there for genocide, we are there to stop genocide.
You know, the guys chanting "Kill Em All, Let God Sort Them Out", the guys that saw off prisoners heads or burn people alive in a cage, or herd Jews and anyone else they don't like into gas chambers...

And when you question why our military members didn't execute a wounded, helpless enemy combatant instead of taking him prisoner, or murder him without a trial, you do the entire military a huge disservice...
You crap on everything every veteran & current military member fought & died for.

From what I read, Lindh provided intel to the enemy, which resulted in an attack, which resulted in one of our soldiers being killed in said attack, a couple of hours later. I support our military 100%, and would've had no problem with them killing every one of the attackers, including Lindh. That's all I'm saying. Our enemies have no compunction about hiding in a civilian population and using them as human shields. If some of those civilians get killed in an ensuing battle, that's on them, not us. Yes, we try to avoid civilian casualties, which we should, when possible, but if you've got unfriendlies firing at you from a school or mosque or marketplace, sorry about their luck. That's precisely why we get into "wars" that last years instead of weeks or months. The enemy has no such limitations placed on them. My preference would be to get in, with overwhelming force, and get it over with. Which is worse? A lot of people killed quickly, followed by peace, or never-ending warfare because we want to play fair? I think we need to get back to WWII tactics instead of Korea, Viet Nam or any conflict in the Middle East tactics. Those "conflicts" (they never called them "wars") were run by politicians, not the military. That's a huge mistake, and that's why they ultimately fail.

 

[JeepHammer]

From what I read, Lindh provided intel to the enemy, which resulted in an attack, which resulted in one of our soldiers being killed in said attack, a couple of hours later. I support our military 100%, and would've had no problem with them killing every one of the attackers, including Lindh. That's all I'm saying. Our enemies have no compunction about hiding in a civilian population and using them as human shields. If some of those civilians get killed in an ensuing battle, that's on them, not us. Yes, we try to avoid civilian casualties, which we should, when possible, but if you've got unfriendlies firing at you from a school or mosque or marketplace, sorry about their luck. That's precisely why we get into "wars" that last years instead of weeks or months. The enemy has no such limitations placed on them. My preference would be to get in, with overwhelming force, and get it over with. Which is worse? A lot of people killed quickly, followed by peace, or never-ending warfare because we want to play fair? I think we need to get back to WWII tactics instead of Korea, Viet Nam or any conflict in the Middle East tactics. Those "conflicts" (they never called them "wars") were run by politicians, not the military. That's a huge mistake, and that's why they ultimately fail.

And again... One more time...

WE THE PEOPLE aren't ISIS, al-qaeda, NAZIs, etc.

Why do you think so many Americans were so upset about torture of enemy combatants?

We have clearly defined rules, we respect HUMAN rights (not just middle american, anglo-christian rights).

We DO NOT kill non-combatants if at all possible to keep from it...

We signed the Hague Accords, the Geneva Convention, Human rights accords, etc.
So either we stick to our word as "We The People", or we are no better than ISIS, al-qaeda, NAZIs, etc.
There is no exemptions or "Gray Area In Between".

Make no mistake,
The 'Enemy' comes at me with arms raised, and I'll stack them up like cord wood.
I don't care what they were fighting for, I'll do my level best not to come home in a body bag, or to keep them from dragging that crap over here to YOUR doorstep.

If it sounds like a career Marine that's because I am.
I've seen what happens when 10 different parties go 15 different directions, and the propaganda works on the population.
Lincoln said it best, "A house divided against itself can not stand."
You want the "Us vs Them" and not "We The People" then you are cooked already...

--------

I WILL NOT kill non-combatants or wounded/helpless combatants that are no longer a threat to me.
I have enough issues sleeping at night without that hanging around my neck...

And I will not kill people on the highway over road rage, or blow up women's clinics, or mow down people at an anti-NAZI rally...
I'm not a terrorists, I'm part of "We The People", we don't do that crap, and anyone that does IS A TERRORIST.

It's not a choice of "Either/Or", it's all or nothing.
Now, more than ever, it's one way or the other.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

And again... One more time...

WE THE PEOPLE aren't ISIS, al-qaeda, NAZIs, etc.

Why do you think so many Americans were so upset about torture of enemy combatants?

We have clearly defined rules, we respect HUMAN rights (not just middle american, anglo-christian rights).

We DO NOT kill non-combatants if at all possible to keep from it...

We signed the Hague Accords, the Geneva Convention, Human rights accords, etc.
So either we stick to our word as "We The People", or we are no better than ISIS, al-qaeda, NAZIs, etc.
There is no exemptions or "Gray Area In Between".

Make no mistake,
The 'Enemy' comes at me with arms raised, and I'll stack them up like cord wood.
I don't care what they were fighting for, I'll do my level best not to come home in a body bag, or to keep them from dragging that crap over here to YOUR doorstep.

If it sounds like a career Marine that's because I am.
I've seen what happens when 10 different parties go 15 different directions, and the propaganda works on the population.
Lincoln said it best, "A house divided against itself can not stand."
You want the "Us vs Them" and not "We The People" then you are cooked already...

--------

I WILL NOT kill non-combatants or wounded/helpless combatants that are no longer a threat to me.
I have enough issues sleeping at night without that hanging around my neck...

And I will not kill people on the highway over road rage, or blow up women's clinics, or mow down people at an anti-NAZI rally...
I'm not a terrorists, I'm part of "We The People", we don't do that crap, and anyone that does IS A TERRORIST.

It's not a choice of "Either/Or", it's all or nothing.
Now, more than ever, it's one way or the other.

Then you must really despise what we did in WWI and WWII. There were a helluva lot more civilians killed during those wars, I'm certain. Funny how the two "Great Wars" in combination took less time than any of our recent forays into never-ending "police actions". There was a reason Patton wanted to continue to Stalingrad after Berlin.

 

[IndyDave1776]

The courts are the few places in government that have to explain their decisions, base their decisions on previous standing law.
Actual, vetted evidence is presented, both sides get to explain their take on said evidence, and a jury of 'Peers' decide the question of guilt or innocence.
Every single word is recorded, reviewed, and in some cases mistakes are found and even jury decisions are overturned.
It can't get more transparent than that.

I can't help you don't understand how the process works, but you would get full benefit of the process, including defense council were you to be charged with something.
Everything would be recorded, you get copies of everything, the prospective evidence would be presented to defense, and you would have a chance to vet/argue that evidence before a jury of your 'Peers' ever saw it in court.
If convicted, you have numerous appeals to correct any issues about anything in the process.
Even though you don't believe in that process, generations of scholars have refined it to be transparent, and ultimately your 'Peers' will decide your guilt or innocence.
(And again, I point out all this was available in schools from 6-12 grade, I don't know how you missed it)

I'm not a raving anti-government conspiracy theory believer...
The courts are way more transparent than any other branch of government, and while there can be bad actors, it's not nearly as common as you would have people believe.

As for 'Subject'...
Not in the way you throw it as an insult.
I'm subject to the same rules & laws as anyone else, and that's the way the Constitution and courts are supposed to work.
I don't believe I'm 'Special' and I can run around doing what ever idiot idea crosses my mind.
I'm 'Joe Average', no better or now worse than any other working stiff.
That saves me a lot of time & energy when my ego tries to get way ahead of my education or rational thinking.
It's not about ME, it's about WE THE PEOPLE...
My idiot ideas and over inflated ego don't trump the Constitution or rule of law.
(Again, taught from 6th-12th grade in school)



Since you weren't military,
When fired upon the military will return fire.
To shoot someone that surrenders is murder, and our military as a whole does NOT commit murder.

Enemy combatants aren't always 'Terrorists'.
Terrorists aren't always engaged by the military, for example the idiots that start shooting in this country.

In some cases, the military will NOT return fire, a 'For Instance' is a gunman in a crowd of civilians.
It sucks, but the military has training & discipline and doesn't 'Spray & Pray'.
They don't mow down women, children, old men just because the situation sucks.

It took a LONG time for our leadership to designate marksmen and deploy snipers so the bad actor could be dispatched without shooting up crowds and racking up civilian body count.
The Israelies had deployed sharp shooters & snipers in similar situations since the 70's, our leaders didn't take a lesson...
And they still haven't learned with drone strikes, it's a new toy for them and they will have to learn the hard way.
The "Kill Em All, Let God Sort Em Out" mentality is what got us into deep s**t in the first place...
Kill civilians and you make a ton of new combatants, everyone that knew and loved them.
Nothing happens in a vacuum...

You might also not know the military doesn't keep homicidal psychopaths, most are vetted out early on.
Military is there to restore peace & security, and if the bad guys want to challenge that authority, then we deal with them on their level.
We aren't there for genocide, we are there to stop genocide.
You know, the guys chanting "Kill Em All, Let God Sort Them Out", the guys that saw off prisoners heads or burn people alive in a cage, or herd Jews and anyone else they don't like into gas chambers...

And when you question why our military members didn't execute a wounded, helpless enemy combatant instead of taking him prisoner, or murder him without a trial, you do the entire military a huge disservice...
You crap on everything every veteran & current military member fought & died for.

You understand the theory and textbook fumction of law and courts well. That said, your ignorance of what happens in reality is astounding.

 

[JeepHammer]

You understand the theory and textbook fumction of law and courts well. That said, your ignorance of what happens in reality is astounding.

Insults...
Does that mean you ran out of coherent, cogent information to debate?

 

[Bigtanker]

 

[JeepHammer]

Then you must really despise what we did in WWI and WWII. There were a helluva lot more civilians killed during those wars, I'm certain. Funny how the two "Great Wars" in combination took less time than any of our recent forays into never-ending "police actions". There was a reason Patton wanted to continue to Stalingrad after Berlin.

First, time frame issues...
Have you ever heard of the hundred years war?
How about the French & British going at it for over 500 years?
What about the crusades? Constant war for over 200 years the last time.

---------

This isn't Germany & Japan.
This is a stateless war.

The allies stopped the Axis advance, then took away the ability to make war.
*IF* this were a world war, and these countries had declared war on one side or the other, then this would have an entirely different outcome.

Do we bomb Russia & China where most of the weapons and military training comes from?
Do we bomb Syria, Pakistan & Iran where the weapons & trainers are funneled through?

Does the US take credit/blame for the start of this?
Since the US taught the Mujahideen how to defeat an occupying army (Soviets 1979 to 1990) and much of it is the same tactics the US taught the Mujahideen which became the Taliban & later Al-qaeda?

Anyone & everyone can look back with their own version of things...
A polite reference is "Armchair Quarterback".
How many of American bodies are 'Acceptable'?
How much debt can any one nation take on, war being 100% loss of materials, labor & lives.

And you don't take into account the US isn't an 'Empire'.
Any occupied country is going to fight back, the US was a 'Colony' of an empire and we did...
All the countries ISIS is hiding in were colonies/occupied at one time or another, and that had to fight for Independence.
How exactly do you think the US citizens would react to an occupying force?

And you MUST think of the religion factor, there is no way around it.
The not very well educated are easy to manipulate by saying religion, 'God' is under attack.
When you don't have much of an education, dictators have come & gone, foreign Invaders have come & gone, 'God' is the only constant that hasn't done anything bad directly to them, the only constant in their lives...
Someone 'Threatens' that 'God' and you take up arms.
Doesn't matter if it's the Christian, Jewish, Muslim or any other 'God', they feel as strongly as anyone else when they are being told their 'God' is under attack.
And keep in mind religion is exactly the reason for the crusades, when it's sold to them as just the next round of crusades, they join out of duty to their religion, just like tens of thousands of Americans joined the military after 9/11/01 when they thought Christianity was under attack...
AND, they come from all over the Middle East, Western Europe, North Africa...

Until these people mass up somewhere,you can't tell one from another, and not only is it a waste of bullets/bombs to kill everyone,
But when you miss the bad actors and kill civilians you make more combatants...

And back around to economy,
While a bullet is cheap, it costs hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars to get assets into a position to fire that bullet...

------------

Now, let's cover a few 'Mistakes',
If Patton would have turned east toward Russia, the US/Allies would have been crushed.
First, the ability for Europe to make war materials (or materials of any kind) was completely destroyed,
Supplies from the US & Canada had to cross an ocean.
Russia had a direct, and very efficient supply chain directly to the battle front.
Russia's entire production was war materials oriented, and intact/producing.
The entire adult population of Russia was conscripted to produce war materials.

They had the manpower, a larger standing army, was making tanks & heavy guns faster than the allies could supply across an ocean,
And they had the support of formally NAZI occupied countries to add to their ranks.

While the North Koreans started a shooting war, *IF* we had used nuclear bombs, Russia would have retaliated.
If we had pushed through North Korea into China, we would have faced a billion Chinese still sore about being occupied by Japanese during WWII, and they were supported directly by the Russians.

Viet Nam was a misunderstanding of the indigenous population entirely.

The US military wanted to fight 'Commies' at all costs,
And no one would listen to the experts on Viet-Nam telling them it would be a blood soaked guerilla war fought in at least 3 surrounding countries, which is exactly what happened.
You simply couldn't stop the supply lines from Russia & China, and this was a country that was illiterate and had no concept of democracy.

That brings us to the invasion of Iraq,
No WMDs,
No nuclear program,
No connection to Al-qaeda,
No one in Iraq wanted an occupying army on it's soil no matter how bad Sodomy Insane was...

While GHW Bush listened to the experts, left Sodomy Insane in power,
GWB went in cowboy style and created a power vacuum...

Keep in mind GHW Bush already made that mistake in Afghanistan in 1990 when the Taliban took over...
GWB didn't listen or learn, so he made that mistake over again, and we would up with ISIS.
While Sodomy Insane was insane, he kept Iraq out of Al-qaeda/Iran hands...
GWB screwed that all up.

I'm talking to you like a civilian person about this, just laying down facts and reasoning.
Please don't go insulting and ranting, it's always more complicated than civilians understand.
You can't reasonably expect 'Them' to think like 'We The People", they have no concept since they have never lived it.
Trying to import an entirely alien concept and force it upon them scares the crap out of them, just like the idea of Islamic rule or communist rule scares the crap out of us.

And at some point, what are you personally willing to provide to the effort past removing the ability to make & export war to the US?
How much of your income are you willing to donate?
How many lives are you willing to donate?
Past removing the ability to export war, how much of the internal politics do you personally want to get involved in?
They don't have a Navy or Air Force, they use the internet which Americans invite right into their homes.

The ONLY way to stop people inviting these ideas into their homes, and that's when "We The People" encourage acceptance of democracy over any given religion or idea.
You can't have it both ways, it's the Constitution and the rule of law, or it's every stupid idea that comes down the internet...

There is no 'Capitol' to bomb, there aren't weapons production facilities to bomb, it's only rats where you can find them, that takes time...
We are still hunting NAZIs, and we are still haunted by the stupid ideas that NAZIs held,
We are still fighting religious ideas even though it's the Constitution that protects your particular religion,
Figure out which side you are on... And I mean that in the most serious terms.
It's either what ever idea that comes down the internet... Or it's the Constitution, imperfect as the system is...
The alternative is exactly what the tribal areas are, 100s of tribes all fighting endlessly with each other, only coming together to fight an outside occupying force...
Endless wars & murders, just like the gangs do to each other in America right now...
Just like the white supremacists & NAZIs do right now,
Just like the religious sects do right now...

 

[DoggyDaddy]

JH, you make some excellent points. But you also reinforced some of mine, especially that wars are waged by politicians now. Omar Bradley predicted this at the end of WWII. That was the beginning of "globalization". Enemies that we defeated, we rebuilt and they became allies. We didn't "take over" their countries on a permanent basis (colonization). Then there's the nuclear aspect. The world caught a glimpse of just how terrible nuclear weapons could be, and M.A.D. became the offense and defense. I think it had a chilling effect on mass mobilization as a tactic. Why send a million soldiers to some faraway land when you could launch a couple of ICBMs and kill that many from the comfort of your own shores? Of course nobody wanted to do that (thankfully).

And it certainly makes a difference when a single country has multiple factions within it competing against one another. That brought about the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" failed strategy.

It (warfare) has become a war for and against ideas and beliefs rather than territory now. How do you fight a belief system? You can't, at least not effectively. Especially as the world continues to shrink via communications. No need to put up recruitment or patriotic posters when you can see EVERYONE's propaganda with a few keystrokes on the computer. I think we are more in agreement than disagreement.

Not sure I agree about what the results would have been if Patton had had his way. Your view is certainly one possible outcome, but Russia was hurting too. They had lost a lot of men and materials over the course of the war. If it was a prize fight, it likely would've gone all 15 rounds with both contestants winding up bloodied and bruised. I'm just not so sure that it would have been the Soviets that would've prevailed. Remember, at that point, we had used nuclear weapons, and we were the only ones that had done so. For good or ill, the threat of that happening to another country would have had to have had no small amount of influence.

 

[JeepHammer]

JH, you make some excellent points. But you also reinforced some of mine, especially that wars are waged by politicians now. Omar Bradley predicted this at the end of WWII. That was the beginning of "globalization".

What Omar Bradley & Eisenhower tried to warn the general public OF THE WORLD about was called the "Military Industrial Complex".
It got twisted by spin doctors into 'Communists' so those global businesses could keep the arms races alive, and keep control of power & wealth.

When the "Us vs. Them" scare tactics are applied, it's always to separate...
Communists vs. Democracy, Black vs. White, Christians vs. Islam, Comservitives vs. Progressives,

It's the big lies...
The opposite of Communism IS NOT Capitalism,
The opposite of Communism is Democracy.
The opposite of Capitalism is Free Market.

There is no difference between 'White' and 'Brown' people.
The difference is the education they receive.
Blood interchanges, organs interchange, we are all humans by definition...
Take the idiot ideas out of the mix and no matter skin color, they will do equally well, or fail depending on education.

Enemies that we defeated, we rebuilt and they became allies.
We didn't "take over" their countries on a permanent basis (colonization).

See how that idea flys with Native Americans...

Again, it often depends on the education level and the comprehension of democracy.
The Viet Nam people never got behind the French, or the Americans/Allies.
They spent 40,000 years living tribal, and didn't have a concept of a united country under Democratic rule.
You can't beat a population that will attack a cobra with bows & arrows without totally eradicating the population and replacing it with people educated in democracy.
And that's genocide...

Then there's the nuclear aspect.
The world caught a glimpse of just how terrible nuclear weapons could be, and M.A.D. became the offense and defense.
I think it had a chilling effect on mass mobilization as a tactic.
Why send a million soldiers to some faraway land when you could launch a couple of ICBMs and kill that many from the comfort of your own shores?
Of course nobody wanted to do that (thankfully).

I'm around simply because someone, somewhere loved their kids more than they hated the US...
A Russian sub officer was the line hold out from firing a nuclear torpedo during the Cuba crisis, he said he knew it would start a nuclear WWIII and thought about all the civilians back in Russia and in America, and voted against launching the torpedo...
That one lone Russian officer stopped a nuclear WWIII simply because he loved his people, and considered all the people in the US that had nothing to do with the military.

As for lobbing nukes,
Humans are lazy by nature, they will do the least amount of work necessary to stay alive and/or comfortable.
There is a reason we train combat troops the way we do,
Don't walk on trials, don't repeat patrolling 'The easy way', if you didn't drop it don't pick it up, don't leave trash behind that gives away your troop strength, don't leave anything behind the enemy can use, use your safety and point the weapon in a safe direction so you don't kill your own, etc. etc.
This is tactical training...

Strategic training is don't shoot the random grunts you see, follow them back to their 'Base' and assess the weapons, communications, mobility, supply, etc of the enemy camp.
Why zap a couple goat humpers when following them gets you an entire encampment and maybe crack their communication to figure out where the commanders are... An even bigger target.

The same *Might* very well be true with this Taliban released from prison...
Strategic thinking, see who he connects with, communicates with, who comes to him since he's reportedly unreformed, why not get ahold of someone bigger before squashing him like the bug he is...?

The 'Easy' way is rarely the 'Right' way.
It sucks at the moment, but with correct training to think ahead we don't make so many mistakes, or the same mistakes over & over again...

And it certainly makes a difference when a single country has multiple factions within it competing against one another. That brought about the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" failed strategy.

Failed in SO many ways...
Ask any satellite country around Russia or China that accepted them into their countries to run the NAZIs out during WWII,
Ask any neighbor of Hitler about signing 'Non-Agression' pacts with Hitler...
Ask any of Sodomy Insane's neighbors about how they feel about NOT dealing with Sodomy sooner...
The list goes on, but the point is made.

It like living with methheads next door here,
You don't do anything about it since they don't give you problems... Until there is 2 dozen of them and they DO give you trouble.
It's 'Easier' not to get involved, but 'Easy' isn't 'Right'...

I got lambasted because I said I wouldn't involve myself in road rage, I would back out of a dangerous situation...
What I do is record everything, and I have zero issues with reporting to police and providing video.
Im not a police officer, so it's not my job to 'Punish' the idiots,
Its in my best interest to extract myself from a dangerous situation,
And not being lazy, reporting an obvious road rager to police AND providing the video puts the rager on the radar of police even if they don't catch them in the act.
It puts me out, but it's simply the 'Right' thing to do...

Idiot people have patterns, and most violent idiots escalate.
See any bomber, school shooter, religious extremists, etc.
Getting these idiots on someone's radar allows to track pattern & esclation,
And if anyone is paying attention, the proper authorities will take notice.
If not, it's not on me, I did my part...

The same is true with governments,
When some dictator kills his own people, what makes you think he won't mow you/yours down without even thinking?

It (warfare) has become a war for and against ideas and beliefs rather than territory now. How do you fight a belief system? You can't, at least not effectively. Especially as the world continues to shrink via communications. No need to put up recruitment or patriotic posters when you can see EVERYONE's propaganda with a few keystrokes on the computer. I think we are more in agreement than disagreement.

I don't see it that way.
Population approaching or exceeding 8 billion people, there isn't anymore land being made.
With global deforestation, and global climate change happening, it's going to be a crap load of wars over water & tillable, farmable land to feed that ever increasing population.

While religion was a serious deciding factor when 'Christians' tried to take the 'Holy Lands' during the crusades, it's about oil now...
You have to remember that during the crusades, the Christians sacked & looted anything & everything of value.
Europeans actually believe the stories about the middle east being paved in solid gold, so much they coated the roof tops in gold (that would be the roofs of churches & mosques).

The Spanish invaded, and committed genocide looking for the famed city of gold (Eldorado).

And all this was before the first billion humans had walked on the planet...

Japan started three wars over energy, both coal & oil before WWII.
The single biggest limiting factor for Hitler was energy & natural resources.

Wars are about land, resources, and labor force.
No one was interested in Afghanistan other than a route to the far East until gold & now Lithium was found.
Reagan/Bush dropped Afghanistan like a hot rock in 89/90, but now that Afghanistan is the largest supply of lithium for the current generation of batteries that make modern life possible.
Gold producing countries are more or less stable since colonies liberated themselves, and with demand going up because of electronics and supply not being cheap anymore, a gold strike in Afghanistan that's still up for grabs at sub-market rates, war is good for the Chinese that got the gold contracts.
Americans & Europeans are trying to get the lithium out, and ALL have to do business with the Taliban to get the gold & lithium out....
The US/Europeans pay in cash, the Chinese pay in weapons & explosives.

Not sure I agree about what the results would have been if Patton had had his way. Your view is certainly one possible outcome, but Russia was hurting too. They had lost a lot of men and materials over the course of the war. If it was a prize fight, it likely would've gone all 15 rounds with both contestants winding up bloodied and bruised. I'm just not so sure that it would have been the Soviets that would've prevailed. Remember, at that point, we had used nuclear weapons, and we were the only ones that had done so. For good or ill, the threat of that happening to another country would have had to have had no small amount of influence.

Russia ramped up war production after invasion,
Keep in mind they designed tanks, aircraft, semi & full auto weapons as a result of the NAZI invasion.
And Russia had way more natural resources & energy than all of Europe combined.

You also probably don't know the US was a long way from a third nuclear weapon.
The test bomb, and two available deployable nukes were the entire production of fissionable material.
Two small nukes dropped on a fairly small island would work, while small nukes dropped on the vastness of Russian held lands would have been farts in the wind.
The later mega bombs would have done the job, but we simply didn't have them at the time.

And you didn't consider the Communist mindset, while Japan wasn't anti-technology and didn't murder it's educated population they had people educated enough to see the writing on the wall...
Japan embraced education & technology, witness the Japanese Navy & Air Force during WWII.

The allies probably wouldn't have been much use, while everyone quotes 'Short' world wars, the US didn't get into either until our allies were against the ropes and the wars had been raging for years.

 

[Brad69]

Several trends will continue to affect future OEs. The competition for resources, water access, declining birthrates in traditionally allied nations, and disenfranchised groups in many nations contribute to the likelihood of future conflict. Populations will continue to migrate across borders and to urban areas in search of the employment and services urban areas offer. Adversarial use of ubiquitous media platforms to disperse misinformation, propaganda, and malign narratives enables adversaries to shape an OE to their advantage and foment dissention, unrest, violence, or at the very least, uncertainty.

 

[JeepHammer]

Several trends will continue to affect future OEs. The competition for resources, water access, declining birthrates in traditionally allied nations, and disenfranchised groups in many nations contribute to the likelihood of future conflict. Populations will continue to migrate across borders and to urban areas in search of the employment and services urban areas offer. Adversarial use of ubiquitous media platforms to disperse misinformation, propaganda, and malign narratives enables adversaries to shape an OE to their advantage and foment dissention, unrest, violence, or at the very least, uncertainty.

A well thought out, cogent and informative post right there!

For those having seen the worst humans can do to each other, it's not a debate point anymore.
The most simple terms are "We The People" can withstand nearly anything BUT misinformation, disinformation, outright lies/propaganda, and self segregating into 'Us' & 'Them'.
There are always WAY more 'Thems' than 'Us'...

Everyone wants to complain about our government... And every group blaming someone else.
It's no secret, and there is no 'Dr. Evil' heading up the snake, no head to cut off.
Right wing, Left wing, same vulture picking our carcases clean for big business, wrap it in a bible & flag and steal with both hands for an average of 34 years (34 years being the average time in Congress once elected).
And it's no different in any other country, they keep power and aquire wealth for as long as they can...
And their wealth comes from big energy, big pharma, big banking & insurance and defense contractors.

If "We The People" start to get organized, our government/big business points to 'Them' to take the focus off them...
*IF* "We The People" get organized, there are very few in government that could withstand the scrutiny, I suspect there would be a lot of charter planes loaded with money headed to countries without extradition treaties...

Take the cults of personality out of the equation, and there are a LOT less wars,
Hitler, Stalin, Saddam... You know the names, or at least should know the names...
Some sort of a functioning democracy helps stop the cultists from taking power or holding power in the first place.

China & Russia passed laws that effectively allow the 'President' to retain power until he dies, or someone over throws him...
You already know that's not going to go well with both on the imperialism expansion warpaths they are currently on.
I'm glad I'm old and don't have to deal with it, but I do wish the current generations would educate themselves to these facts, because if they don't it's REALLY going to suck for them.

 

[Brad69]

That’s a quote from US Army FM 3-0 “Operations”

The Military not the “military Industrial complex” has quietly prepared for years for the situation we are in right now. It’s often just a few paragraphs in a manual that make you think what the heck is this about.
One of the most interesting current templates is a “youth bulge” and how it will effect the U.S.
Since about 2000 warnings that future wars will be fought over resources. Cliff note version the “have nots” will rise against the “haves” this will break down Democratic style governments to be replaced with Socialist Dictatorships.

 

[JeepHammer]

Strategic planners have been warning about depletion of resources with increasing population since the 60s.
The 'More' everyone wants, the more resources required, and when you talk 8 billion...

The warnings about 'Socialists' governments taking over have been around as long as I have, but anyone that understands socialism vs. communism understands democracy has to have social contracts to function.
No water, sewer, electricity, road system, conscription military, etc is possible without social contracts.
Democracy simply uses socialist ideas when it applies & is appropriate.

I haven't heard about the 'Youth Bulge' I'll have to research it.

 

[JeepHammer]

The Youth Bulge Theory is a concept that identifies young men or women as a historically volatile and ever increasing population. It explores the idea that the presence of more than 20% of young people raises the potential for rebellion and unrest.

Approximately 71% of the 34 million 17-to-24-year-olds in the U.S. would not qualify for military service because of reasons related to health, physical appearance and educational background

Explains why the big push for anti-abortion laws, the system simply needs meat for the grinder.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Strategic planners have been warning about depletion of resources with increasing population since the 60s.
The 'More' everyone wants, the more resources required, and when you talk 8 billion...

The warnings about 'Socialists' governments taking over have been around as long as I have, but anyone that understands socialism vs. communism understands democracy has to have social contracts to function.
No water, sewer, electricity, road system, conscription military, etc is possible without social contracts.
Democracy simply uses socialist ideas when it applies & is appropriate.

I haven't heard about the 'Youth Bulge' I'll have to research it.

I don't know about the youth bulge, but I do know about the middle age "bulge".