Another Self Defense story with Q

[Coach13]

Ok, I have another situation that I would like to share and know if i handled correctly. I think eveyone has been in this situation once or twice.

At Walmart in Franklin. I was parked 2 rows straight across from the Diesel pump. I had just came out from meeting my wife in the store and needed fuel. I start to pull straight out and a gray toyota pickup cutts diagnal across the parking lot straight across the nose of my Excursion, I slam the brakes to keep from hitting him. Giving him the benefit of the doubt for crossing rather than down the isles because I was going to cut straight across myself, and he probably didn't notice me pulling out. But he did notice me enough to flip me off. Ok, now he goes from guy to title idiot. Idiot whips in at high rate of speed in the only remaining diesel pump when all others are open. A guy with a white dodge dully on the other side of the pump saw the whole thing and is skaking his head at the guy when I pull up behind toyota to wait for diesel. I didn't crowd him at all so I am not sure why he is taking his time and staring at me the entire time. I am not looking for trouble so I just chill and wait my turn. Ok, idiot gets done, takes his time getting in his truck and starting it while staring at me in his rear view mirror. Now he starts to pull out but only pulls up about half a car legth and stops. He is now staring at me in the side view mirror and laughing. Ok, now I am getting pissed! He wasn't a kid, probably early 30's. So I pull up really close to him so that I can reach the tank with hose. Now idiot is not laughing but a serious look on his face. I probably did to, but behind sunglasses I never took my eyes off of him. I slipped my firearm/holstered on my hip to OC, on purpose, and hopped out to fuel. The guys eyes like to buggedout! He slammed it in gear and peeled out, little peel actually, exiting the parking lot irratically. The other guy fueling said good job, that guy was looking for trouble. I said I figured as much. And that was it. Being clear, I did not OC firearm to shoot the guy, only as a visual deturant! This what I feel is the best purpose of OCing. A deturant!

My wife said you should have just waited or went somewhere else. She thinks I, and we here, carry our firearms due to egos.

What would you have done?

 

[eldirector]

As a fellow diesel-driver, I feel for ya'! A dozen open gas pumps, and some idiot always hogs the only diesel pump.....

Intentionally OC'ing to frighten off someone? Kinda childish. He already moved enough for you to go about your business. Let him rant, rave, and stare.

Up to the "on purpose" part, I've done the same. The squealing tires, middle finger, and racing engine show me just how tough they are.

 

[VERT]

Mixed feelings on this scenario. On one hand showing the gun on purpose is not my style. However it is was not unsafe or illegal so if it prevented further confrontation then job well done. Sounds like he was looking for trouble. Just be careful not to assist him in finding it.

 

[shibumiseeker]

My question is why did you hang around someone who was being openly hostile and aggressive?

Yeah, you've got every right to be where you were, but is the risk that some nut case who doesn't care if you have a gun on your side or not is going to start trouble worth it?

The smart action, armed or not, is to try to avoid a conflict where if you are armed you may end up having to use your weapon.

Were you trying to "teach him a lesson" as much as he probably thought he was "teaching you a lesson?"

To each their own, but when I am carrying a weapon in public I make a much bigger effort to avoid trouble than when I am not carrying (though admittedly that second condition is rare).

 

[IndyBeerman]

Two things, idiots like this like to make it the world against me thing, next thing is your intention switch to open carry as a deterrent.

I see no reason for you to have done this, and anyone willing to try and upset you to this point could have been mentally unstable enough to be provoked by your actions. 's down on this

I would NEVER purposely switch from CC to just to try and make some sort of visual statement.

 

[youngda9]

I guess I don't really like what you did, however I know that I would have been very tempted to do the same thing in that situation. There is no brandishing law in IN and OC is perfectly legal.

On a positive note, perhaps you calmed down one hotheaded road-rager permenantly...that guy will think twice about trying to start stuff with the next person he cuts off.

 

[rmabrey]

I think you did just fine, I wouldn't tell you to cover it up in this situation if your normally OC so im certainly not gonna flame you for uncovering

 

[Coach13]

Thanks for the feedback. My intention was to send message to move-a-long. I can also see how this could have aggravated the situation. My thoughts on feedback here would be that had I been OCing then same, but since I don't, and did on purpose to encourage the move on, was I really wrong? Is this not what it is for, ward off threats? I am not one way or the other, I truly am looking for answers. I have never been one to move away because of idiots, this is part of why I think our country has become so soft, and like youngda9 said, possibly he did learn a lesson. Again I want to be clear, I was not looking to show off or mess with the guy, just didn't want to be messed with any more.

I honestly admit that even after reading damn near every thread on here on the subject, I am still unclear and uneasy about when and where and how far to take a situation where I must either expose, posture or pull my firearm. I guess this was in a way a small test so to speek. Again not looking for opportunites to show it-use it-or whatever. I posted this story because I have learned so much from my other story I shared. I can honestly say I am working on my INGO Responsible Armed Citizen Education. I just can't imagine the feeling and/or consequences, of choicing to employ my weopon and indirectly go to jail myself...... the only thing that scares me worse is not, and getting dead!

Someone will ask, so I will answer first. Why don't you OC yet? I am not scared, embarrassed, or uncomfortable. But, I am unsure of what are my rights and/or right answers in the event an officer approaches me and doesn't know my rights either. I have seen some videos and threads here and I am still very unclear. I think I will put this part in a new thread.

 

[shibumiseeker]

Thanks for the feedback. My intention was to send message to move-a-long. I can also see how this could have aggravated the situation. My thoughts on feedback here would be that had I been OCing then same, but since I don't, and did on purpose to encourage the move on, was I really wrong? Is this not what it is for, ward off threats? I am not one way or the other, I truly am looking for answers. I have never been one to move away because of idiots, this is part of why I think our country has become so soft, and like youngda9 said, possibly he did learn a lesson. Again I want to be clear, I was not looking to show off or mess with the guy, just didn't want to be messed with any more.

Hey, I don't go around messing with other people for jollies and I'd love to pound those who do.

But the simple fact of the matter is that you live in a world where you cannot count on random people in public to play by the same rules you do. One of the first things you learn in self defense is that the most successful end to an encounter is avoiding it in the first place. It has nothing to do with being soft, and everything to do with being responsible. If you see trouble and can get away, do so. If you can't get away, you do anything you can to ensure you survive it and the troublemaker doesn't. Posturing about standing your ground is all good and fine, but your defense doesn't start with the weapon, it starts by not being there where trouble is. This has nothing to do with carrying openly versus carrying concealed. The fact of the matter is you wanted to intimidate this guy, which you did successfully. It sounds to me like you are now trying to justify it. Yeah, the threat ended without anyone getting hurt which is good, but the threat would have ended sooner without the risk of anyone getting hurt.

From a legal standpoint you may be perfectly within your rights to stand your ground in Indiana, but chances are extremely good that even if you have a justified shoot you will lose your weapon, and it will cost you several thousand dollars in lawyers fees and lots of lost sleep and worry as to whether or not the local prosecutor will charge you with anything, and then there's the worry of a civil lawsuit from the family of the "poor innocent person you ruthlessly gunned down." Ask yourself, is all of that worth it to "teach a small lesson?"

 

[Coach13]

Hey, I don't go around messing with other people for jollies and I'd love to pound those who do.

But the simple fact of the matter is that you live in a world where you cannot count on random people in public to play by the same rules you do. One of the first things you learn in self defense is that the most successful end to an encounter is avoiding it in the first place. It has nothing to do with being soft, and everything to do with being responsible. If you see trouble and can get away, do so. If you can't get away, you do anything you can to ensure you survive it and the troublemaker doesn't. Posturing about standing your ground is all good and fine, but your defense doesn't start with the weapon, it starts by not being there where trouble is. This has nothing to do with carrying openly versus carrying concealed. The fact of the matter is you wanted to intimidate this guy, which you did successfully. It sounds to me like you are now trying to justify it. Yeah, the threat ended without anyone getting hurt which is good, but the threat would have ended sooner without the risk of anyone getting hurt.

From a legal standpoint you may be perfectly within your rights to stand your ground in Indiana, but chances are extremely good that even if you have a justified shoot you will lose your weapon, and it will cost you several thousand dollars in lawyers fees and lots of lost sleep and worry as to whether or not the local prosecutor will charge you with anything, and then there's the worry of a civil lawsuit from the family of the "poor innocent person you ruthlessly gunned down." Ask yourself, is all of that worth it to "teach a small lesson?"

Great post, thank you for the reply. Next time I think I will handle the situation the way of your post. makes total sense. This was kind of what I was looking for. I am not justifying it, just looking for the line and seeing if I crossed it.

Shooting someone, hope to God I never have to, got nothing to do with the monitary costs. It's sleeping at night knowing I took someones life and potential of going to jail myself, these lurk in my conscious.

I quoted you in another post on Responsible with firearms -OC, your post here needs to be there too.

Thanks again.

 

[shibumiseeker]

Great post, thank you for the reply. Next time I think I will handle the situation the way of your post. makes total sense. This was kind of what I was looking for. I am not justifying it, just looking for the line and seeing if I crossed it.

Shooting someone, hope to God I never have to, got nothing to do with the monitary costs. It's sleeping at night knowing I took someones life and potential of going to jail myself, these lurk in my conscious.

I quoted you in another post on Responsible with firearms -OC, your post here needs to be there too.

Thanks again.

You're welcome. I know that if I felt internally justified I'd have no issue with taking a life in self defense, but to feel internally justified I'd need to be sure I had no part in escalating the situation.

The one time I ever pulled a gun on someone I later questioned my decisions, and I'm very glad that situation ended peacefully since I now recognize that I played a big part in it. While I was technically in the right at the time, I don't think I could have lived with it knowing I could have easily walked away. It's one thing that encouraged me to seek better training for how to handle carrying a weapon. It seemed so much simpler with (at the time) 10 years of martial arts training.

 

[88GT]

She thinks I, and we here, carry our firearms due to egos.

You got kids? Tell her this mama packs to protect mine. No ego involved.

What would you have done?

Waited a little more patiently until he got done yanking your chain. Idiots like that do it to get a rise outta ya. Pretend you're bored with him and he'll get really bored with you and move on. I also like to wave at them happily once or twice. If they can't make you mad, they really don't want to waste their time.

It's taken me about 10 years to respond that way more often than the other though.

My question is why did you hang around someone who was being openly hostile and aggressive?

'Cuz he wanted gas, dammit. (I know, diesel, but it doesn't sound as good when you say it out loud.)

Dumb people are everywhere. Mean people are everywhere. Violent people are everywhere. Unless you wanna stay home, you're gonna cross paths with them at some point. Why should you have to alter your day's plans or your life for that matter just to avoid interaction with them?

I don't think the idiot was being hostile and aggressive. And dick, maybe. But he wasn't revving the engine as if to run someone over or crash into some one. He didn't utter profanities or threats. He was just being a dick.

Two things, idiots like this like to make it the world against me thing, next thing is your intention switch to open carry as a deterrent.

I see no reason for you to have done this, and anyone willing to try and upset you to this point could have been mentally unstable enough to be provoked by your actions. 's down on this

I would NEVER purposely switch from CC to just to try and make some sort of visual statement.

Had he been OCing from the get-go and hopped out without covering it, would you have been equally damning?

Coach, there's only one thing I would have done differently for sure and that's not respond to his idiocy. Depending on circumstances I would have either waited for him to get bored and move on or quietly and unassumingly pulled up enough to get the job done without making eye contact with him (wearing the shades would have helped here) so he doesn't think I'm trying to be aggressive or posturing. Probably would have made small talk with the Dodge dually driver just to add to the air of casual calm. "Can you believe diesel prices these days?"

I don't have a problem with you turning CC into OC. You just might've saved that dern fool's life. ( You never know) Either way, you're alive, he's alive, no property damage. I like that ending.

 

[eldirector]

My perspective on this whole thing is "intent". Showing off the fact that you are armed, just to scare some punk who is acting foolish, isn't very responsible.

It isn't like the OP was using the presence of a firearm to end a threat. He didn't like the other guys attitude, so figured a firearm would scare him off. Classic intimidation:
Indiana Code 35-45-2

I'm just glad the "jerk" (this is a family-friendly site, right?) didn't try to raise the stakes farther.

 

[Hammerhead]

I disagree with those of you who are telling the OP that his actions weren't justified, or weren't appropriate.

First off, they guy was a d-bag. He was being childish and immature, classic bully posturing.

Second, for those of us who OC regularly, are you going to tell me that if I got out of my vehicle in this same situation already OCing are doing so to intimidate this d-bag? No, I'm simply getting out of my vehicle and going about my business. And yes, I have gotten out of my vehicle when even unintentionally CCing and "Virginia tucked" to return to OC. Truth is, the OP did nothing wrong.

Now, is he attempting to placate himself, justify his actions, and make sure he feels better about carrying? Yes. But that's perfectly ok. There's got to be some starting point for those carriers who are not comfortable OCing regularly to begin to feel it's just fine to do so. This just happens to be the OP's starting point.

I'm not going to tell someone that they're intentionally breaking the intimidation clause in the IC just because they decide to OC. The guy was a bully and thought he'd get his kicks intimidating the OP. The OP exposed his sidearm before exiting the vehicle. The d-bag realized that he shouldn't bully people he doesn't know.

+1 to Coach.

 

[jdewyse]

I don't think that simply getting out of your vehicle while OCing would be considered intimidation by any means.

 

[Hammerhead]

Neither is intentionally uncovering a CC'd sidearm and then getting out of the vehicle. Even if the OP did do it to make ready. The bully d-bag saw the sidearm and realized (even assumed wrongly the intent of the OP) that his actions were writing checks his mind and body weren't willing to cash so he tucked tail and ran.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Avoiding conflict is a good principle. Keyword is avoid, not run from. I've shown someone else my cards a couple times. In each situation I avoided conflict because they knew what may happen, not because they weren't intent on initiating conflict.

I had a situation where I was downtown Indy at 1A leaving my office. I had a guy start hassling me on the circle. I pulled my coat back and he decided it was time to go. Another time I was followed by a carload of hood rats to my neighborhood. I pulled into a driveway a couple blocks from my house, turned my car to give me good cover and got out. Three of them jumped out when I stopped. They all ran like little girls when they saw the 45 in my hand. Popo picked them up a couple miles away. They said they were just asking for directions and I started yelling the N word at them and pulled a gun and blah blah blah. You get the picture.

It does no good to carry a gun if you're not willing to use it to protect yourself.

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

I guess I don't really like what you did, however I know that I would have been very tempted to do the same thing in that situation. There is no brandishing law in IN and OC is perfectly legal.

On a positive note, perhaps you calmed down one hotheaded road-rager permenantly...that guy will think twice about trying to start stuff with the next person he cuts off.

Would have really ticked me off as well, though I would have restrained from doing anything that might have the possibility of being provocative.

But your brandishing statement is wrong. To brandish a weapon would mean to have pulled it out of its holster and wave it around in a menacingly fashion. To merely show you have a weapon in your holster, whether CC or OC is not brandishing.

 

[Hammerhead]

Rhino owes Kirk a case of .45acp.

There is no brandishing law in IN. There is a pointing a firearm (loaded and unloaded) and intimidation, but no brandishing.

 

[ATM]

Rhino owes Kirk a case of .45acp.

There is no brandishing law in IN. There is a pointing a firearm (loaded and unloaded) and intimidation, but no brandishing.

But it is still a verb and since there is no alluding to it being illegal here, I think rhino should squeak out of this particular instance.
Just my .



And regarding the OP: switching to OC before you exited your vehicle was just fine.

Switching to OC after you exited your vehicle would also have been just fine.

Neither are even remotely close to illegal intimidation.