Another Self Defense story with Q

[a.bentonab]

IC 35-45-2-1
Intimidation
Sec. 1. (a) A person who communicates a threat to another person, with the intent:
(1) that the other person engage in conduct against the other person's will;
(2) that the other person be placed in fear of retaliation for a prior lawful act; or

OP's actions really tip toe the line here. On one hand, you could say that OP wanted the other person to be "placed in fear of retaliation for" his lawful acts of blocking a gas pump. Nothing illegal about being a jerk. The threat was communicated by brushing aside your cover and drawing attention to your weapon.

On the other hand, you could say that the OP wanted the other person to fear retaliation for the illegal act of violence against the OP.

The intimidation law is all about intent. I think it is clear the OP had the intent of putting the other person in fear of retaliation, but the question is whether he had to fear retaliation for a lawful act or not, and frankly the jerk didn't do anything illegal.

I guess it depends on who calls the cops first haha. How true is the saying that the first person to call the cops is the victim?

He uncovered with the intent of putting the other guy in fear. It worked.

 

[indyjoe]

I won't say that I've never done something similar, because I have. I announced that I had a legal pistol when challenged. However, I will not again. Here is my reasoning:

The person can easily say that you threatened them with the pistol.

In your situation, you had witnesses and were probably fine. We were at a stop light and he had not liked that I slowed down to the speed limit when he started following my car close enough that I couldn't see his head lights (at 55 mph.) The guy told me that he was going to beat the s#!t out of me with the base ball bat he held up. He started to slide over to the passenger side and get out when I told him that it would be a shame if I felt threatened for my life and had to shoot him with my legally carried pistol.

Just me and him and nothing to stop him from calling the cops and telling them I threatened to shoot him. Then I would be in a hassle.

Now just OCing to make a bully understand he isn't at the top of the food chain. There IS a little something I like about that.

 

[ATM]

OP's actions really tip toe the line here.

Tip toe? Maybe, but about a mile from the line.

The threat was communicated by brushing aside your cover and drawing attention to your weapon.

It's been repeated several times in this thread that the OP uncovered BEFORE HE EVEN EXITED THE VEHICLE.

He uncovered with the intent of putting the other guy in fear. It worked.

That's the cool thing about OC, it puts most people who would do you harm in fear. Why hide it and feign the illusion of weakness?

 

[Smitty506th]

You were within your rights but I think it was over the top. If you put it on your hip (OC) just so he could see then to me that is the same as unholstering and holding it at your side. You were upset and wanted him to know "not to mess with you" (deterrent). He may have been in his 30's but was acting like a kid. Hopefully he will meet with karma, sooner than later. Glad things ended safely.

 

[a.bentonab]

It's been repeated several times in this thread that the OP uncovered BEFORE HE EVEN EXITED THE VEHICLE.

OK I reread it. I don't see anything wrong with the ACTIONS of the OP, but according to IN law the INTENT is what is at issue, and he did it so that the other guy would be "in fear of retaliation for a prior legal act." So I can see a problem if a cop/lawyer/whoever asks "why did you OC just that once?"
"To scare him away."

Thought crimes suck.

 

[Hammerhead]

Since we have no way of knowing what the d-bag bully was thinking before Coach got out of his truck, nor no way of knowing what the d-bag bully was thinking after Coach got out and was carrying his legal sidearm, any inference of intimidation is only speculation. Was the d-bag bully attempting to provoke Coach by acting like a childish jerk? Don't know. What we do know is that Coach exited his vehicle, the guy saw that Coach was armed and he left in a hurry.

We can only speculate that the d-bag was hoping Coach would get out of his truck and escalate the situation. He might have even been really wishing he could get a rise out of Coach so that he could "show him what's what". Typical bully behavior. Since he saw that Coach wasn't intimidated and was packin' heat, he, like most bullies, realized he picked on the wrong person and ran. That's the same situation that I've dealt with when it comes to bullies. They'll pick on you if they sense weakness. Coach showed that he wasn't weak and the d-bag knew he wouldn't win. Coach wouldn't be a victim and the guy knew he wouldn't win that fight.

 

[ATM]

...and he did it so that the other guy would be "in fear of retaliation for a prior legal act."

Well, you can make up the OP's intent or you could read what he wrote.
If you just don't believe him, that's fine.

So I can see a problem if a cop/lawyer/whoever asks "why did you OC just that once?"
"[STRIKE]To scare him away.[/STRIKE]"

How about, "As a deterrent. He seemed to be looking for trouble and I sure didn't want any... just some fuel."

Pretty hard to prove otherwise IMO.

 

[dholmtime]

I think switching to open carry could have gone either way. That could have threatened him and if he was as crazy as he sounds he could have came at you forcing you to possibly heightening the situation. But you never know if I would have probably done the same in the given situation.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

OK I reread it. I don't see anything wrong with the ACTIONS of the OP, but according to IN law the INTENT is what is at issue, and he did it so that the other guy would be "in fear of retaliation for a prior legal act." So I can see a problem if a cop/lawyer/whoever asks "why did you OC just that once?"
"To scare him away."

Thought crimes suck.

It would be difficult to prove intent as long as you keep your sewer shut.

If you are EVER questioned by the police about ANY incident involving a firearm, take a DEEP BREATH and do not exhale until your lawyer arrives.

If you follow that one simple piece of advide no one will ever get an answer to the second question.

 

[LPMan59]

why does it matter of he switched to OC as a deterrent? Is this not one of the main justifications for OC? that it prevents crime?

if OCing might have provoked the guy, then "normal" OCing might get you the first bodybag.

besides him posting it, we would have never known his intent. and i imagine there are some who OC for the same reason.

 

[Coach13]

Maybe I should have passed on the firearm and stuck on a "Don't Tread on Me" sticker on my shirt, that would have scared idiot off! Kidding....

No seriously, I am getting a ton from all of this, the peer reviews are outstanding! Thanks to everyone. I hope this helps others like me that don't always know what Q's to ask or don't ask Q's to avoid getting flamed

Had I wanted to intimidate the idiot I would have done far far more than get out and pump minding my own business. Where I grew up I would have just kicked the crap out of him, now that's intimidating. Aaaa but times have changed and I am much smarter and more to lose. But it did cross my mind! It's wonderful how a good butt kicking lends to humility.....

Facts. CC while in Walmart for an hour. Came out and place firearm under seat. Idiot did his deal and was looking for trouble. I chose not to avoid him, my choice at the time, really low on gas, and placed my firearm on my hip OC rather than in the back CC before getting out starting my pump. That's all. The guy got the message without me waving it at him, pointing to it, yelling at him, making direct eye contact, and never so much as a hint of taunt or intimidation.

I am not upset here, the advantage that I have is I was there and no one here knows me, so I can see how this all can be looked at differently. This is exactly what I was counting on and why i posted, a range of neutral opinions.

My question again, isn't this exactly why we OC or carry at all? Ward off trouble and protection? Just asking.

I have had 3 situations in the last year and a half where guns were involved. 1. when I caught 2 guys breaking into my outbuilding, had 22 in hand when I chased them off. 2. Story I shared about an Intruder Alert in my house. 3. This story here. I feel I am a smart guy, but firearms are just one game that has to be chose perfectly everytime. This is why I am asking all these questions. I don't want to do anything with my guns but have chosen to own them and carry them. Therefor I am trying to get educated in the event they must be used, leading to making the right choices.

I am out of stories and hope I live a long and happy life with no more stories to share! Unless you want to hear about the time I shot the bumblebee on the side of the tree with a 22 at about 40 yards, no scope and with witness...........Priceless, still makes my chest poke out a bit!

I think bad guys avoid doing bad things to big dudes, numbers, and armed folks. Street law.

Yes DIESEL prices suck! It's a scam......

 

[Rookie]

Question. Why did your weapon go from your holster to under the seat? Leave it in the holster where it belongs...

 

[Coach13]

Question. Why did your weapon go from your holster to under the seat? Leave it in the holster where it belongs...

Sorry, meant both under seat. They stay together.

 

[Rookie]

But why remove your holster? Leave it on your hip...

 

[Coach13]

But why remove your holster? Leave it on your hip...

In the back it is too uncomfortable. On the hip it hangs on the side arm rest and on the seatbelt. Just a hassle really. Plus I like it in the holster when under the seat to keep it from sliding around and getting dinged up.