Ar questions

[KJQ6945]

This analogy might not make any sense to a lot of you, but it does to me, so let's give it a try.
In the old car world, what brings the big money, an all original '69 Hemi Roadrunner, or a '69 Sattelite cloned into a Hemi Roadrunner? Or better yet, a full on hot rod, with custom interior, big tires and a blower sticking out of the hood? All three would be stupid expensive to build/restore, scary fast, and great at the car shows. An original car with the right VIN will be more expensive in the beginning, but the restoration costs are the same to build the clone. The difference is, the clone will never be worth as much. The full on hot rod, might be the coolest of the three, but it is a money losing proposition. The styles change, and what is cool today, will look silly in 10 or 20 years.

Guns aren't really any different. In 1990, If you bought an Olympic AR15 for $500, and a Colt for $600, which one do you think is worth more today? Saving a hundred bucks on the price, might cost you a grand down the road. Colt Pythons weren't that much more than a S&W, but they sure are now. Let's not even get into the HKs.

Just something to consider.

 

[JJFII]

I'm a total capitalist. As someone who has been a mechanic in a small shop for a number of years and doing aircraft restoration on the side, I also know that the only labor that you get paid for is the labor you get contracted to do. I'd also never pay a non certified armorer to assemble my lego 15. No hate, do what you do, but having been very active in the local ar market for a few years, the guys asking more than the sum of the parts sit on them and clutter up the front page every 5 days with another bump. There is one guy that has been bumping the same build for a year and a half trying to charge more than the sum of the parts. Heck even a notable gunsmith on here sells his builds for a loss, I have one (capitalist). there was nothing I had to go in and fix, nuts were staked, and the pins were driven without messing up the cerakote, and still i'm positive he took a hit on it. Charge what you charge, and hope for a sucker, there is one born everyday.

I totally get what you are saying. I just dont agree that a person is ripping someone off or a person is a sucker if they dont have the mechanical skills to assemble an AR. I've met a ton of guys who couldnt change a tire let alone assemble an AR. Everyone of them posses a skill I didnt have so there was a trade of skill sets while I assisted their assembly. I know a Surgeon who wouldnt dream of attempting to assemble any mechanical device for fear of hurting his fingers in a way that stopped him for operating. I'm not dropping any names here, but there is a certain HGTV guy who lives in LA owns many AR15s and has people assemble for him.

If some guy is attempting to sell a $399 Kit assembled for $900..yeah thats stupid. But that same $399 kit with a $50 lower, completely assembled can sell for $500, and that isnt a rip off... thats a fair price to a person who 1- Doesnt want to go buy a lower and 2- doesnt want to (or doesnt know how to) assemble a kit.

a home made AK...now I want to see some creds...LOL

 

[Vigilant]

I build in order to get a specific outcome. Lately I have been chasing 6.5 Grendel, and lightweight rifles. If I could buy what I wanted assembled for the same price, I would do so. Since I can’t, I’ll build it.

As for the guys selling for exorbitant prices, I think there was a brief period (around election time, iirc) where a guy could buy parts, build the rifle, and sell it for double. While that window is long gone, there are plenty of guys still chasing the dream.

Would you be so kind as to tell us what an “off caliber” build tends to cost, and what parameters were in place to build said rifle? What you expected from, and what you received, from said build?

 

[Vigilant]

This analogy might not make any sense to a lot of you, but it does to me, so let's give it a try.
In the old car world, what brings the big money, an all original '69 Hemi Roadrunner, or a '69 Sattelite cloned into a Hemi Roadrunner? Or better yet, a full on hot rod, with custom interior, big tires and a blower sticking out of the hood? All three would be stupid expensive to build/restore, scary fast, and great at the car shows. An original car with the right VIN will be more expensive in the beginning, but the restoration costs are the same to build the clone. The difference is, the clone will never be worth as much. The full on hot rod, might be the coolest of the three, but it is a money losing proposition. The styles change, and what is cool today, will look silly in 10 or 20 years.

Guns aren't really any different. In 1990, If you bought an Olympic AR15 for $500, and a Colt for $600, which one do you think is worth more today? Saving a hundred bucks on the price, might cost you a grand down the road. Colt Pythons weren't that much more than a S&W, but they sure are now. Let's not even get into the HKs.

Just something to consider.

Ive tried and tried to make this point, over and over again. YouTube does not a small arms technician make. Everyone thinks ARs are legos, and that train of thought, does not a technician make. Contrary to popular belief, ARs are NOT LEGO rifles, there is a process to building one that WORKS. Can you build an AR on your couch, yes you can. Can you build an AR on your couch that you can depend on for $500 or less? I’ve not seen it, YET. Can you buy one for under $1000, the answer is YES, if you shop around, you can buy a complete FACTORY BCM, COLT, for under $1K. You CAN build one from QUALITY parts as well, but it won’t be $500, it will be closer to $1K. But **** it, I digress, because there will be at least 10 folks that say their $500 build can compete with a factory DD, LMT, BCM, et al.

 

[Ggreen]

I can take my ddm4 apart and put it back together without changing function or reliability from watching YouTube videos. AR rifles are Legos. They require no fitting, filing,machining, or real skill by design. A 1911 is a different story. All of my Homebrew rifles are north of 1k in parts and optics tho. But as far as assembly, there is nothing special or difficult when it comes to pinning the parts together.

 

[Vigilant]

I can take my ddm4 apart and put it back together without changing function or reliability from watching YouTube videos. AR rifles are Legos. They require no fitting, filing,machining, or real skill by design. A 1911 is a different story. All of my Homebrew rifles are north of 1k in parts and optics tho. But as far as assembly, there is nothing special or difficult when it comes to pinning the parts together.

Then why are there numerous posts on the webs about “why my rifle be not workin’?” And, why can’t “factory” built rifles make it through a weekend class? I will state again, AR’s, at least good ones, aren’t LEGO builds. If in fact the LEGO thing were true, there wouldn’t be the 1000’s of interwebz posts about “why won’t my M4gery werx?” 23&P is simply a, well, not many can answer that, yet they wanna be AR smits?

 

[Vigilant]

I can take my ddm4 apart and put it back together without changing function or reliability from watching YouTube videos. AR rifles are Legos. They require no fitting, filing,machining, or real skill by design. A 1911 is a different story. All of my Homebrew rifles are north of 1k in parts and optics tho. But as far as assembly, there is nothing special or difficult when it comes to pinning the parts together.

As far as require no fitting, filing, machining, or real skill by design, have you ever seen a “small arms repairman’s” issue tool CRATE? Ok, it’s not a full crate, but it’s much larger than a tool box, and it’s not for LEGO.

 

[Vigilant]

While you don’t have to hand file/fit every part, building an AR, that works, isn’t a LEGO endeavor that can be filled by every manufacturer that says they ar AR experts.

 

[JJFII]

Then why are there numerous posts on the webs about “why my rifle be not workin’?” And, why can’t “factory” built rifles make it through a weekend class? I will state again, AR’s, at least good ones, aren’t LEGO builds. If in fact the LEGO thing were true, there wouldn’t be the 1000’s of interwebz posts about “why won’t my M4gery werx?” 23&P is simply a, well, not many can answer that, yet they wanna be AR smits?

The AR was designed to be a modular assembled rifle from a specific standpoint. Its a lego design. Pointing to a few forum post saying the rifle isnt designed they way it is ...I just cant fathom that understanding. There are people who make very good money fixing cars, planes, trains, washing machines, refrigerators...are you saying none of these products are good? My company is one of the largest manufacturers in the world. I fix our stuff ever day of the week and we have the highest quality standards in the business. If someone where to say we didnt based on the THOUSANDS of complaints on the web...LOL That is laughable, we sell MILLIONS...

For every "my homemade rifle doesnt work" there are probably 1000+ people who assembled their Lego15 without issue. You are always going to have the guys who dont follow the Lego15 rules and end up with a broke gun.

All the actual hard data on cheap AR15s say swapping 4 parts places the firearm neck and neck with rifles costing 3 times as much...Bolt, Hammer spring, Hammer pin, Bolt Catch.
Back in the day, poor Gas Key bolt torque caused Colt to stake them, after properly torquing them.
20 years later the same issue happened to the Lego15 market and on top of poor torque, guys where staking the bolts which increased the problem...because the problem isnt that the bolts were not staked..the problem was the bolts were not sealed and torqued properly.
The Lego15 market came out with the "set-screw gas block"... Huge aid to the home-builder. Now you didnt need special tools and a higher level skill set to drop a gas block on the barrel, but you still needed some skill and sure guys screwed that up. Again for every "why is my AR15 FTF"... there were 1000s of guys who did it right.


While I was not a member here when these hit youtube, I can bet these videos where discussed here...
There is a video of a $1100 DD rifle failing hard testing on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IJU0zm1glY
There is a video of a $500 PSA rifle passing hard testing on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crdPv6nAQwU
The guy doing the testing is the most stand-up honest guys anyone could have the pleasure to meet. He's honest to a fault.

does this mean the DD isnt worth $1100? Does it mean the $500 is better...No.

Again,... talking real live numbers here... based on sales of parts, 80%s and Lower sales, the amount of sellers in the market place... there are probably 10 times more home-built Lego15s than there are Factory built rifles sold per year. So its natural for there to be 10 times as many problems. The percentage of a possible failure is the same.

If you cant build an AR15, you probably cant change a tire, do your own oil change or tune a bow.

 

[roscott]

Would you be so kind as to tell us what an “off caliber” build tends to cost, and what parameters were in place to build said rifle? What you expected from, and what you received, from said build?

Yikes. I try not to calculate the total build cost. Not including the optics, mount, or suppressor, I'm sure I have $900 in the rifle. Let me also point out that I am by no means a "small arms technician." I have built several ARs, and have sometimes learned by making mistakes.

Parameters were:
Under 9lbs with scope and can. That's 6.5lbs bare weight.
11.5-12.5 inch lightweight 6.5 Grendel barrel.
Slim handguard with QD sling mounts and Mlok connections for rails.

I expected decent accuracy and sufficient energy from a compact and lightweight rifle suitable for deer and hogs from 3 yards to 300. I wanted a do-everything rifle. I got most of what I wanted, and actually exceeded my expectations in accuracy. I'm not finished testing loads, but I've shot just over 1MOA groups thus far, which should be more than sufficient for a hunting rifle. If I can get it under MOA I'll really be tickled. I think I am going to be short of my 300 yard goal however, because I do not have adjustable turrets or a sufficient reticle for adjusting for drop, and MPBR seems like it will be just over 230 yards. So 250 will likely be my limit.

 

[Ggreen]

Then why are there numerous posts on the webs about “why my rifle be not workin’?” And, why can’t “factory” built rifles make it through a weekend class? I will state again, AR’s, at least good ones, aren’t LEGO builds. If in fact the LEGO thing were true, there wouldn’t be the 1000’s of interwebz posts about “why won’t my M4gery werx?” 23&P is simply a, well, not many can answer that, yet they wanna be AR smits?

Most I've seen that don't work were from an off centered gas tube that bubba rammed through an improperly aligned barrel nut and it is binding up in the gas key. Some of the time though there is a problem with the parts they bought off of alibaba. If a person buys quality parts, it is just like legos. A lot of higher end handguards come with their own wrench with spacers and marked wrenches that do not require a torque wrench. Putting together a lower is silly easy. Especially if you use knipex plierwrench to just squeeze them into place. Seems a lot of grief of the online complainers comes from cheap parts, barrels improperly drilled, offset gas block, which will lead to an offset gas tube. I mean the mistakes people make putting their ar's together are no different than using a 2 block where you should have used a 3 or a 4 block. For new builders there are barrels that have an indent for the set screw even.

Look at majority of the standard 5.56 build fails, most are splattered with discount parts, blem recievers, blem bcg's, or trying to run some exotic spring and weight combo. Just because people choose to use crap parts doesn't make the process of assembly anymore difficult. Armorers are trained to deal with fails that may come from a variety of issues, that takes some skill and more specialized tools. Assembly with quality parts is super easy for someone that has a little bit of working knowledge with tools.

 

[churchmouse]

This^ Why buy new when you can build to your specs/wants/needs?
Plus i enjoy building them

Bingo. And I do not use cheap parts. But when I try and sell one to get another project financed or just to make room for a new to me piece I love the offers and remarks about how they can get an AR like mine () from the Farm store for $450.....Hilarious.

 

[MrWizard]

Bingo. And I do not use cheap parts. But when I try and sell one to get another project financed or just to make room for a new to me piece I love the offers and remarks about how they can get an AR like mine () from the Farm store for $450.....Hilarious.

My favorite is people asking way over street value, or even MSRP for parts because “that’s what I paid for it”.

 

[Expat]

I put a couple together and have the makings for several more. I would never buy someone else's build.

 

[Alpo]

Any time you buy a factory assembled firearm, you are buying "someone else's build". And they aren't all qualified gunsmiths.

 

[Trigger Time]

I've been asked so many times what I recomend someone buy when it comes to an AR. My best advice; buy ANY factory built BCM upper you can afford and put it on a complete lower. For budget brands I'd recomend Aero. I like them a lot.
Then, save up for a QUALITY optic. Like an aimpoint or eotech or trijicon scope (not mro in my opinion and experience).
Then save up for a factory built BCM lower receiver so you have a complete bcm gun.
Take the AERO lower and repeat the above by buying another BCM upper. Mayve .300 blackout this time?

If you arent on a budget then buy a factory complete; bcm, larue, knights, dd, pof, lmt

 

[cmann250]

I was looking at Aero receivers with BCM and LaRue guts.

I came up with almost $1k on the BCM website for a complete upper plus BCG and CH.

What am I missing here?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Trigger Time]

I was looking at Aero receivers with BCM and LaRue guts.

I came up with almost $1k on the BCM website for a complete upper plus BCG and CH.

What am I missing here?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I own several BCM uppers and several complete bcm guns. I've posted deals on here for a complete BCM rifle minus furnature for 850 If memory serves me correct. Brownells was that one.
You can get an excellent bcm upper for 600 to 800. Sure you can go higher. Keep browsing the site.

 

[Mgderf]

See, mods, this thread right here is the PERFECT example of why we need a "can-of-worms" emoji!

 

[churchmouse]

See, mods, this thread right here is the PERFECT example of why we need a "can-of-worms" emoji!

That is north of my pay grade.....