Are the benefits of an NFA trust worth it?

[Ggreen]

Short answer, yes a trust has many benefits. To not use a trust is very short sighted.

I've yet to see a benefit beyond being partners in the item? Individual forms are getting approved in 4 to 6 months while trusts, even single member trusts, are talking nearly a year. I did a lot of searching before making my purchases and saw zero benefit for someone who doesn't want someone else to play with their toys.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I've yet to see a benefit beyond being partners in the item? Individual forms are getting approved in 4 to 6 months while trusts, even single member trusts, are talking nearly a year. I did a lot of searching before making my purchases and saw zero benefit for someone who doesn't want someone else to play with their toys.

Apparently you didn't read the whole thread then because I listed several benefits up thread. One of the larger benefits to somebody like you is keeping your NFA assets out of the probate process when you pass. Probate is part of public record, and anybody that wants to can see what you had and who got it when you passed. Even a will must pass through probate; a trust does not. Are yo leaving your items to somebody you care about when you die? Kids? Grandkids? Friends? Do you want the public to be able to find out what you had and who got it?

 

[KJQ6945]

I've got items as an individual, and I have items on a trust. Going forward, future items will be as an individual. To me, the only real advantage was skipping the CLEO sign off. Now that that has been eliminated, the trust is more of a pain in the ass, with having to print and photo all involved. The trust had several advantages prior to 41F. They intended to eliminate the advantages, and they succeeded.

As far as the probate issue, and anonymity, if that was a big concern, we wouldn't be talking about and posting pictures of our toys here, for ALL to see.

 

[JonProphet]

The photo and finger print issue is easy to get around. As i have posted before.

 

[KJQ6945]

The photo and finger print issue is easy to get around. As i have posted before.

That works fine if your just starting out. Are you going to start a new $129 trust every time you make a purchase?

 

[Tanfodude]

But if your family only shoots with you/ if you only let them shoot suppressors and sbrs while you're present it is still completely legal to let them shoot while you're with them.

Per ATF, it's not if the firearm is not registered to them. Hence the trust. Whoever is in the trust will be legal to use the title 2 items.

 

[Ggreen]

Per ATF, it's not if the firearm is not registered to them. Hence the trust. Whoever is in the trust will be legal to use the title 2 items.

How does knob Creek work if what you say is a fact. Lots of private owners let others shoot their mg's. Washington State tried pushing this when it came to handing firearms to another person and calling it a transfer.

The only reference I can find to not being able to let your friends shoot your SBR or silencer in the presence of the owner is on sites selling boilerplate trusts.

 

[Tanfodude]

How does knob Creek work if what you say is a fact. Lots of private owners let others shoot their mg's. Washington State tried pushing this when it came to handing firearms to another person and calling it a transfer.

The only reference I can find to not being able to let your friends shoot your SBR or silencer in the presence of the owner is on sites selling boilerplate trusts.

True to what you said about knob creek but it could be because it is a gun show and the firearms are rental from an FFL (knob creek range), so there might be some business paperwork involved in it, I don't know the specifics. But the info I posted is when I called ATF about it.

Also these:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-9/download

NFA Myths

 

[Ggreen]

It's not loaning if you are with the item in question. You can't go take a leak while your buddy is in possession of your nfa item, but they can shoot while your present. Not all of the full autos at the shows are owned by ffl's and you can still pay to play. And there is no way you would put all of your shooting pals on your trust just so they could run a magazine through your SBR.

It is not a transfer while the owner is present, a loan implies that the item is given to another person for use while away from the owner.

 

[Tanfodude]

It's not loaning if you are with the item in question. You can't go take a leak while your buddy is in possession of your nfa item, but they can shoot while your present. Not all of the full autos at the shows are owned by ffl's and you can still pay to play. And there is no way you would put all of your shooting pals on your trust just so they could run a magazine through your SBR.

It is not a transfer while the owner is present, a loan implies that the item is given to another person for use while away from the owner.

Loan as explained on those link that I provide is defined as "a grant of temporary use" or "something lent usually for the borrower's temporary use", it describes an act. You can look up the dictionary for it. And that word "loan" is being described as a transfer by NFA. And if that transfer is not approved by ATF, it becomes illegal. It's pretty straight forward. This is regardless of if you're present or not.

 

[Ggreen]

There would be people in chains at every mg shoot across the nation. If the ATF describes a loan as a grant of temporary use, and calls that a transfer, then every single rental weapon at the range should rent only after paperwork and nics checks.

 

[Tanfodude]

There would be people in chains at every mg shoot across the nation. If the ATF describes a loan as a grant of temporary use, and calls that a transfer, then every single rental weapon at the range should rent only after paperwork and nics checks.

If they have the man power to enforce it but they don't. They have bigger fish to fry then this. I'm just showing you what's legal or not. I'm not a lawyer, but on my part, I'll stick to what's legal.

Might want to ask any FFL on how it is legal to lease a title firearm as businesses might have different regulations compared to us regular consumers/citizens. It might have to do with a class 3 dealer license. Dealer is desribed as "Any person, not a manufacturer or importer, engaged in the business of selling, renting, leasing, or loaning firearms and shall include pawnbrokers who accept firearms as collateral for loans".

 

[JonProphet]

That works fine if your just starting out. Are you going to start a new $129 trust every time you make a purchase?

Do some research. Go to Silencer Shop and read what they offer as a service. Honestly, its not absolutely clear on their site but the gist of it is, you go to one of their kiosks and add your finger prints to your account and their database. The photo is taken care of by their own Silencer Shop app. This info is held in their servers for 2 years. If you buy a NFA within two years, your info from when you started your trust (and yes, I did a full trust) and it is automatically sent to the ATF. They used to send it electronically but now they are printing it off for you with a check from them (from the funds you paid them for the stamp) and they send it off to the ATF. They know when the check is cashed and your dashboard is updated.

Another benefit of using them is they have folks who check all the relevant info for correctness and accuracy before it is sent out.

They also offer single shot trusts for $25. In that case, every time you want to add a new single shot for each item, yes you have to visit the kiosk each time.

I have 2 NFA items in process and it behooved me to do a trust and try and run it through Silencer Shop. Whether it is 6 mo to 12 mo for the transfer to finish, submitting paperwork that isn't accurate didn't seem logical to me. I do have children and will likely be using my items when they are beyond 21 y/o and adding them to the trust is just logical to me.

Now, I'm not a lawyer but it seems logical that if you already have items in your trust and you add someone after the approval and stamp process, those new people in the trust DO NOT have to go through the NCIC or stamp process. Anyone correct me on that one?

If you purchase items in the beginning and only 1 person is in the trust and you add a second person after the stamp process is concluded but you add another item and go through the stamp process for said new item, everyone has to be included in the process from the trust for approval for new items. Again, Silencer Shop still has all relevant info from all people in the trust and sends it to the ATF automatically.

Hopefully sometime soon, the ATF opens the process back up to the electronic process.

-JD-

 

[NyleRN]

They also offer single shot trusts for $25. In that case, every time you want to add a new single shot for each item, yes you have to visit the kiosk each time.


-JD-

Incorrect

 

[JonProphet]

Incorrect

How so?

I likely wasn't clear. If you buy a single NFA item and do a single shot trust for that 1 item, requires the stamp process and is similar to the full trust in that, it is only for 1 item and anyone can be added or removed from said trust. But is for only 1 NFA item ever.

If you buy a 2nd item, a completely new single shot trust for said single item is new and created for $25.

In essence you have 2 trusts to keep track of and add people in and out of, as the guarantor sees fit.

 

[NyleRN]

You stated you have to visit the kiosk every time you purchase. That's not correct

 

[JonProphet]

Only on a single shot, if you do multiple single shots. If you do a traditional trust, and buy a NFA item 2 years after the initiation of the trust, you have to re-up your information. Pics and prints.

If that is not correct please address.

 

[NyleRN]

Only on a single shot, if you do multiple single shots. If you do a traditional trust, and buy a NFA item 2 years after the initiation of the trust, you have to re-up your information. Pics and prints.

If that is not correct please address.

You can buy as many NFA items you want and use the same prints and pics that were initially loaded in the kiosk regardless if its a trust, corporation, or individual. You are correct in being required to update your photo every 2 years. I don't think you're required to redo your prints. They never change. If you upload your traditional trust to your SS account then they'll just submit that with each purchase

 

[CountryBoy19]

businesses might have different regulations

I'm sorry but your responses wreak of the stink of "I don't have a clue what I'm talking about, I'm just throwing things out there that I think could possibly support my position no matter if they are true or not."

Businesses don't have different regulations. A transfer is a transfer, and permitting somebody to shoot a Title II firearm under your direct supervision is NOT a transfer. It's been addressed by the ATF before. If you got information contradicting this over the phone then you got bad information. Written ATF opinion letters and publications trump phone conversations all day every day.

 

[Tanfodude]

Isn't that clear on what I said that I don't know anything when it comes to business?

Also for the transfer, care to share that info on where ATF clarified that it's not a transfer when loaning it to someone in person? It would help clarify that info with links like I did on the transfer ruling instead of sounding like you're a condescending ****. People here are asking questions, if you know something that others don't, share that info with valid links.

I'm sorry but your responses wreak of the stink of "I don't have a clue what I'm talking about, I'm just throwing things out there that I think could possibly support my position no matter if they are true or not."

Businesses don't have different regulations. A transfer is a transfer, and permitting somebody to shoot a Title II firearm under your direct supervision is NOT a transfer. It's been addressed by the ATF before. If you got information contradicting this over the phone then you got bad information. Written ATF opinion letters and publications trump phone conversations all day every day.