ATF 41P and other rule changes.

[unshelledpilot]

https://www.atf.gov/file/100896/download

(Fair warning, it's 250 pages long)

Of course, they put this out in the middle of the night. The rule change as it relates to trusts, as I understand it, is as follows (ianal):

1. CLEO signoff is no longer required for ANY NFA item, if filed as a trust or individual.
2. Local CLEO will be notified via ATF of transfers( no word on if CLEO will be sent copies of transfer forms, or entire trust)
3. Each person listed on your trust will need mugshots and fingerprint cards for every transfer performed.

I'm still reading through this pile, but these are the major points I could suss out.

Edit: These rules do not take effect until 180 days AFTER it appears in the Federal Register

 

[magic man]

Everyone on a trust will be required to submit a photo and fingerprints.

 

[ljk]

This could be fun, One of my trustees is in San Diego, CA, and my beneficiaries are minors, 3 and 5yo.

 

[Trigger Time]

Even underage beneficiaries?

 

[magic man]

Even underage beneficiaries?

From the way I interpret it, no. It would just apply to trustees. The way I interpret it doesn't mean much, though.

 

[chezuki]

When does this start? Immediately? I have a form 4 I need to submit for my trust.

 

[unshelledpilot]

When does this start? Immediately? I have a form 4 I need to submit for my trust.

180 days after the date of publication, 1-4-16. Everyone else is grandfathered

 

[Rookie]

So, we have until 7-4-16 before we have to play by the new rules?

 

[Lammchop93]

So if you have an already existing trust, do your trustee's have to get fingerprinted/mugshots, or is this only for new trusts?

 

[unshelledpilot]

So, we have until 7-4-16 before we have to play by the new rules?

Exactly 180 days would be July 2

 

[unshelledpilot]

So if you have an already existing trust, do your trustee's have to get fingerprinted/mugshots, or is this only for new trusts?

This has nothing to do with when you formed your trust, it applies to the date in which you file your forms. After July 2, you'll need mugshots and prints for everyone, for every form filed. All the other benefits of trusts still exist, e.g. unsupervised use of trust items and inheritance

 

[tatic05]

I only have a can on my trust but I want to put more on before this goes into effect. Does anyone see people filing amendments to take off trustees so there is only one person on it and then filing the amendment to add trustees back after a set amount of NFA items were processed?

 

[Lammchop93]

This has nothing to do with when you formed your trust, it applies to the date in which you file your forms. After July 2, you'll need mugshots and prints for everyone, for every form filed. All the other benefits of trusts still exist, e.g. unsupervised use of trust items and inheritance

So until I buy new class 3 items, I don't need to do anything regarding the trustee's on my trust?

 

[M67]

Well sh**. Looks like I need to buy a .45 can soon, form 4 a 9mm can I've been dragging on, and send 1 or 2 form 1s.

I got my trust so I didn't have to go to Nashhell for a sign off or prints, it's out of my way and I don't care to go there; and to leave my stuff to a friend instead of "blood" relatives

 

[avboiler11]

Dean Phillips has said his NFAlawyers.com trusts are 41P compliant, as co-trustees in his trust do not meet the "Persons with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust" part of being a "responsible person".

I am curious about the following questions that I'm not sure anybody currently has an answer to:

1. Do we have until July to submit under current rules and be grandfathered, or would it be smart to do the prints/photo/CLEO notification going forward from today?
2. What will be the ATF-sanctioned means of making the CLEO notification?
3. Where would one obtain fingerprints from? I know law enforcement agencies are an option..but can any old person with a fingerprint card do it?

 

[saynation]

It's 180 days AFTER it appears in the Federal Register so the clock has yet to start ticking.

 

[kaveman]

In 180 days, CLEO signoff won't be required for individuals either. Notification only.


See page 227:
Benefits of Requirement to Notify CLEOs
The new law enforcement notification requirement provides at least two important
benefits. First, by changing the certification requirement to a notification requirement, the final
rule reduces the burdens on individuals and entities who seek to possess firearms in jurisdictions
whose chief law enforcement officers either process certifications slowly or refuse to process
them at all. Second, by making the same notification requirement applicable to individuals and
responsible persons of trusts and legal entities the rule closes a loophole that incentivized
individuals to form trusts and legal entities to circumvent the certification requirement. Under current regulations, individuals must obtain a certification from a CLEO in their
jurisdiction stating, inter alia, that the certifying official has no information indicating that
possession of the firearm by the individual would be in violation of State or local law, or no
information that the individual will use the firearm for other than lawful purposes. Some
applicants have found the process of obtaining a CLEO certification burdensome. Additionally,
local and State officials have the option of participating or not, and some CLEOs have refused to
issue certifications, thereby making it more difficult for applicants and transferees to obtain the
needed certification. Requiring only notice, rather than a certification, will benefit applicants
and transferees by removing a potentially burdensome impediment to furnishing ATF with a
completed application.
Under the current rule, the certification requirement does not apply to trusts and legal
entities. Some individuals have therefore created trusts and legal entities to circumvent the
certification requirement. This final rule makes the requirements for background checks the same
for trusts and legal entities as they now are for individuals. The Department believes the
incentive for makers and transferees to create corporations and trusts solely to avoid the CLEO
certification requirement will decrease once the certification is no longer required. As noted in
the comments above, some CLEOs are reluctant to issue certifications for a variety of reasons.
As a result, an individual may decide to establish a trust or legal entity because trusts and legal
entities are not required to provide CLEO certifications under current regulations. By
eliminating the CLEO certification requirement, this rulemaking will reduce the burden imposed
on such individuals. Certainly, there are legal reasons to create a corporation or a trust unrelated
to the desire to avoid the certification. The Department therefore believes creation of these trusts
and legal entities will continue.

 

[Nicu757]

wait times will sky rocket!! I am going to submit 2 more form 1s and get the last can I need. So my question my under age kids what happens in 18 years when there 21 and I want to make them more then just beneficiaries on my trust at that point will they need to print and photo on every item?

 

[SteveM4A1]

So, what keeps an individual from starting with a trust that only has 1 other trustee, then once they get all of their NFA goodies, amending their trust so they have many more on it?

This whole proposal is just ridiculous. Just another government regulation that will do nothing to curb any type of violence whatsoever, but we already know that isn't the goal behind it.

 

[unshelledpilot]

wait times will sky rocket!! I am going to submit 2 more form 1s and get the last can I need. So my question my under age kids what happens in 18 years when there 21 and I want to make them more then just beneficiaries on my trust at that point will they need to print and photo on every item?

I'm sure they will make a rule change that will screw us when this situation comes up.