BATFE ammunition ban (AGAIN!). Confiscation occurring right now.

[invent11]

Interesting - thanks for the info

 

[17 squirrel]

My brother just texed me and said, Sturmgewehr and subguns are deleting any threads on this topic. I wonder why ?????

All the websites I have looked at are still selling 40mm smoke / parachutes and less lethal shells.
Also the 50 bmg online suppliers are still selling 50 bmg spotter,tracer,
ap tracer, incendiary and incendiary tracer.
I think it's all internet BS.

 

[stocks52]

We'll have no talk about freedom around here, young man...

 

[BogWalker]

I read it. I saw it was from 2013. I noted tracers continue to be available. I noted that .223 and .308 are smaller than .50.

So...What confiscation of tracers under .50?

I'm not sure exactly how the BATFE codifies things, but I imagine there's a difference between their little letters and internal memos and actually enforcing such things as law. The 2013 paper is them talking to themselves. The 2015 letter is them taking action on that conversation. I'll agree that at the moment it seems that action doesn't extend beyond 40mm cartridges.

 

[17 squirrel]

If atf is confiscateing 40mm shells why are they still available from all the internet sales company's. ????????

And why is there not a mad rush to buy all you can if you at play with 40mm ??????

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm not sure exactly how the BATFE codifies things, but I imagine there's a difference between their little letters and internal memos and actually enforcing such things as law. The 2013 paper is them talking to themselves. The 2015 letter is them taking action on that conversation. I'll agree that at the moment it seems that action doesn't extend beyond 40mm cartridges.

If atf is confiscateing 40mm shells why are they still available from all the internet sales company's. ????????

And why is there not a mad rush to buy all you can if you at play with 40mm ??????

Even the letter linked to the original TTAG article addresses exactly one type of flare, some IR flare invented in 2011 called the M992. I don't know if its radically different from other flares for some reason, but the letter is very specific about that flare and doesn't say flares in general. I'm thinking perhaps this is being blown out of proportion to generate clicks, but we'll see.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

My brother just texed me and said, Sturmgewehr and subguns are deleting any threads on this topic. I wonder why ?????

All the websites I have looked at are still selling 40mm smoke / parachutes and less lethal shells.
Also the 50 bmg online suppliers are still selling 50 bmg spotter,tracer,
ap tracer, incendiary and incendiary tracer.
I think it's all internet BS.

Point 1: The reason Sturm and Subguns are deleting the threads is because the NFA dealer who was selling the M992 flares (and other 40mm ammo) on Gunbroker is a well-known and high-ranking member of both sites. It looks bad when you sell stuff to people and then it gets seized because you turned over your buyer's info. He may not have had a choice and there may have been other ways for the BATFE to ultimately get the buyer's info, but it still looks bad and reputation is everything in the NFA world. NFA dealers generally play nice with the BATFE for obvious reasons though.

Point 2: Link to a BATFE internet address with the EXACT info isn't good enough for you? People saying they've had their ammo seized isn't good enough for you? Screen shots of official BATFE letters stating what was seized and why it was seized isn't good enough for you? All I can say to you is "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Since you referenced Sturm and Subguns (who have been long known to delete threads they don't agree with or that make certain members look bad), how about going to a more reputable website.
NFATCA home page, left side.
NFATCA

 

[AmmoManAaron]

I'm not sure exactly how the BATFE codifies things, but I imagine there's a difference between their little letters and internal memos and actually enforcing such things as law. The 2013 paper is them talking to themselves. The 2015 letter is them taking action on that conversation. I'll agree that at the moment it seems that action doesn't extend beyond 40mm cartridges.

Your assessment of what is occurring within BATFE is exactly right; this is how they operate on such matters. It's how they did 7n6 and how they tried to do M855. It's funny how people don't realize that although we "won" on M855, we still lost on 5.45x39 7n6 even though it's the EXACT same "partial steel core" issue that is at play. You are also correct that at the moment, as far as I know, only 40mm ammo is being seized. I expect to see confirmation of seizures of 20mm, 25mm, or other >.50 BMG any day now. The = to or <.50 BMG tracer and incendiary portion of the 2013 newsletter is a Sword of Damocles. It may not get enforced immediately, but it is a matter of record and has the force of law behind it until a court says otherwise.

If atf is confiscateing 40mm shells why are they still available from all the internet sales company's. ????????

And why is there not a mad rush to buy all you can if you at play with 40mm ??????

Point 1: BATFE is understaffed when it comes to field agents, it's only a matter of time before they get around to everyone.
Point 2: When you own NFA items, they know EXACTLY who you are and what you have. Why buy more if you think your ammo is going to get seized? Remember, this stuff is NOT being grandfathered like M855 was going to be, how 7.62x39 steel core is, and how other handgun caliber AP is. The unilateral reclassification and seizure of ANY ammunition is a BIG deal and sets a VERY DANGEROUS precedent - one that we cannot surrender on.

 

[oldpink]

This is what happens with the fourth branch of government, the regulatory state.
They pass regulations without congressional oversight, usually at the urging of the Executive Branch.
This is just a more visible example, but most people would be shocked if they knew the myriad ways they worm their way into every nook and cranny of our daily lives, progressiveily of course.

 

[17 squirrel]

Wtf.... Thanks Arron for the nfa lessons, but they are not nessessery. I have been in the nfa game since 1979 my friend, I guess I should have used some purple in my last post..

 

[AmmoManAaron]

Even the letter linked to the original TTAG article addresses exactly one type of flare, some IR flare invented in 2011 called the M992. I don't know if its radically different from other flares for some reason, but the letter is very specific about that flare and doesn't say flares in general. I'm thinking perhaps this is being blown out of proportion to generate clicks, but we'll see.

Point 1: This is not uncommon, individual BATFE rulings and seizure letters are always very specific. I'll see if I can find someone with the same seizure letter that references the M781 chalk round instead; likely they would simply substitute one round designation for the other in the letter.

Point 2: The M992 (infrared para flare) is not any different from any other mil-standard 40mm parachute flare round. It uses a propellant known as M9 flake to eject the flare from the casing at it's apogee, exactly the same as the M583A1 (white para), M661 (green para), M662 (red para), and M663 (yellow para). FWIW, the M781 chalk round uses approximately 5 grains of M9 flake as the propellant to send the projectile downrange, but the 2013 explosives branch ruling and the 2015 seizure letter have nothing to do with M9 flake and do not reference it at all. M9 is similar to other commercial fast-burning flake powders and was once available as surplus.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

Wtf.... Thanks Arron for the nfa lessons, but they are not nessessery. I have been in the nfa game since 1979 my friend, I guess I should have used some purple in my last post..

Sorry, yes, I took you quite literally...some people are blowing this off because it affects a fairly small portion of the firearms community (at the moment) and I find it disheartening that some don't see the danger.

This is mostly flying under the radar just like the 7n6 ban...and I fear that just like the 7n6 ban led to the attempted ban on M855, this ban and seizure of 40mm ammo is going to spread to all >.50 BMG ammo and then to all <.50 BMG tracer and incendiary ammo. The legalese for all of it is already clearly laid out in the 2013 letter, all that is lacking is enforcement...truly a Sword of Damocles above anyone who enjoys "fun" ammo or the DD portion of NFA firearms.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Point 1: This is not uncommon, individual BATFE rulings and seizure letters are always very specific. I'll see if I can find someone with the same seizure letter that references the M781 chalk round instead; likely they would simply substitute one round designation for the other in the letter.

Point 2: The M992 (infrared para flare) is not any different from any other mil-standard 40mm parachute flare round. It uses a propellant known as M9 flake to eject the flare from the casing at it's apogee, exactly the same as the M583A1 (white para), M661 (green para), M662 (red para), and M663 (yellow para). FWIW, the M781 chalk round uses approximately 5 grains of M9 flake as the propellant to send the projectile downrange, but the 2013 explosives branch ruling and the 2015 seizure letter have nothing to do with M9 flake and do not reference it at all. M9 is similar to other commercial fast-burning flake powders and was once available as surplus.

Which is still a far cry from:

Specifically the rumor is that all tracer, incendiary, API, and APIT ammunition is no longer considered small arms ammunition, but is instead considered a low explosive and illegal to possess without an FEL (Federal Explosives License) and a proper explosives storage magazine. Well, it's not a rumor, official documentation here:

That got everyone worked up about their .223 and .308.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

Which is still a far cry from:



That got everyone worked up about their .223 and .308.

I'm sorry BBI, but the 2013 letter explicitly applies to ALL calibers including .223 and .308. They are NOT seizing that stuff at the moment, but the illegality stands none the less. Do we want to wait until they are enforcing it on <.50 BMG calibers before we act?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm sorry BBI, but the 2013 letter explicitly applies to ALL calibers including .223 and .308. They are NOT seizing that stuff at the moment, but the illegality stands none the less. Do we want to wait until they are enforcing it on <.50 BMG calibers before we act?

Time will tell I suppose. I'll revisit this thread in a year or so and see if the fuss was what it was made out to be.

 

[17 squirrel]

Time will tell I suppose. I'll revisit this thread in a year or so and see if the fuss was what it was made out to be.

Yepp...