$#$!!! BP refinery

[longbow]

I can tell you some of my customers are getting paid rediculous amounts to get it up and running.

 

[longbow]

I work with several refineries and cutting maintenance is not one of them. Having witnessed the Lemont explosion from two miles away. They know keeping ahead is the best way to operate. They know those damn welders can blow up the place so they want the repairs planned. Stuff breaks and taking it down for a month is better than 3 years rebuding itcutting corners and keeping it open.

 

[longbow]

I can tell you some of my customers are getting paid rediculous amounts to get it up and running.

 

[Bigtanker]

Now this is affecting me. Due the the BP shutdown, tbe pipeline that feeds our terminal (not a BP terminal) is down. They are bringing truckload of regular gas in from our terminal in Toledo. They need one of our 2 lanes to deliver it into our tanks. So I sit waiting on the one lane all evening. God forbid I need the lane they are using to load a product that is only available in that lane.

I usually have less the 20 minutes in a 12 hour shift of waiting. I've been doing 3+ hours a night now.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Now this is affecting me. Due the the BP shutdown, tbe pipeline that feeds our terminal (not a BP terminal) is down. They are bringing truckload of regular gas in from our terminal in Toledo. They need one of our 2 lanes to deliver it into our tanks. So I sit waiting on the one lane all evening. God forbid I need the lane they are using to load a product that is only available in that lane.

I usually have less the 20 minutes in a 12 hour shift of waiting. I've been doing 3+ hours a night now.

Could always be worse... Milk haulers often times spend MORE time waiting at the dairy terminal than they do on the road... truckers hauling grain from small-town grainery to large terminals have to wait hours and hours to dump a single load in years with bumper crops...

 

[IndyDave1776]

Could always be worse... Milk haulers often times spend MORE time waiting at the dairy terminal than they do on the road... truckers hauling grain from small-town grainery to large terminals have to wait hours and hours to dump a single load in years with bumper crops...

I think you are missing his point. A system which (just barely) works when it works right is not working at this point severely interfering with the logistics of fuel supply, and by extension, doing our bottom line no favors. That truck costs almost as much sitting at a terminal as it does on the road. It is burning only 1 gallon of fuel per hour give or take, but Bigtanker is still getting paid, the overhead costs are still getting paid, and the quantity of fuel delivered per unit time of operation has dropped significantly. Further, the same fuel is getting twice as much pump time. You don't really think about this until you consider the number of wear parts in an industrial pump and the fact that one of those pumps costs as much as most of us pay for a new car.

 

[seedubs1]

I still boycott BP after their botching of the gulf oil leak a few years back. BP can go **** themselves.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I still boycott BP after their botching of the gulf oil leak a few years back. BP can go **** themselves.

You can't really do that. The way the distribution system works, you are only boycotting the local franchisee. BP Corporate's oil just gets sold somewhere else.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I think you are missing his point. A system which (just barely) works when it works right is not working at this point severely interfering with the logistics of fuel supply, and by extension, doing our bottom line no favors. That truck costs almost as much sitting at a terminal as it does on the road. It is burning only 1 gallon of fuel per hour give or take, but Bigtanker is still getting paid, the overhead costs are still getting paid, and the quantity of fuel delivered per unit time of operation has dropped significantly. Further, the same fuel is getting twice as much pump time. You don't really think about this until you consider the number of wear parts in an industrial pump and the fact that one of those pumps costs as much as most of us pay for a new car.

I get his point clearly... and IMHO, you are also missing the point.

First off lets make it clear that this is NOT business as usual. This is an extenuating circumstance, and I haven't seen any news stories relating to people actually running out of gas. It seems to me the system is working in "plan B mode" just fine. Yes, there are consequences, inconveniences, and shortfalls to almost all cases of implementing "plan b" no matter what the situation is. That is why it is plan b and not plan a. You seem to be of the mindset that plan b should function just as smoothly as plan a does. Yet you don't even take into account the ramifications of that, while you're blasting me for not taking into account the added pump time on an expensive pump?

Tell us Dave, in your expert opinion, how should plan B look? When a refinery goes down and the supply chain is interrupted how should things be changed to make things run smoother.

Don't forget, if you're blasting me about added pump run-time on a pump then certainly the bottom line is crucial so we'll stick with that and your implemented plan B cannot cost any more money in infrastructure (no more pumps at the terminals, no more pipelines, etc). I'm interested in hearing this marvelous (utopian) plan you have in your head.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I get his point clearly... and IMHO, you are also missing the point.

First off lets make it clear that this is NOT business as usual. This is an extenuating circumstance, and I haven't seen any news stories relating to people actually running out of gas. It seems to me the system is working in "plan B mode" just fine. Yes, there are consequences, inconveniences, and shortfalls to almost all cases of implementing "plan b" no matter what the situation is. That is why it is plan b and not plan a. You seem to be of the mindset that plan b should function just as smoothly as plan a does. Yet you don't even take into account the ramifications of that, while you're blasting me for not taking into account the added pump time on an expensive pump?

Tell us Dave, in your expert opinion, how should plan B look? When a refinery goes down and the supply chain is interrupted how should things be changed to make things run smoother.

Don't forget, if you're blasting me about added pump run-time on a pump then certainly the bottom line is crucial so we'll stick with that and your implemented plan B cannot cost any more money in infrastructure (no more pumps at the terminals, no more pipelines, etc). I'm interested in hearing this marvelous (utopian) plan you have in your head.

OK...

First, your prior post appeared to be an excoriation for whining as evidenced by your examples of other drivers who have such wait times routinely which have absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Second, no sh*t. Ray Charles can see that this is not business as usual, but that lack of business as usual has a number of relevant consequences which will affect our supply and cost where dairymen and grain hauler do not affect the transport of fuel.

Third, I never said that plan B should function as smoothly as plan A. I simply accounted for the fact that it does not and will necessarily come with negative consequences.

Fourth, if I blasted you about anything, you would know it. If you were nearly as knowledgeable as you apparently believe you are, you would understanding that doubling the wear and tear on high-dollar items does not help the price of fuel go down, which is very relevant to the situation, unlike your milkmen.

Fifth, I never said I had any utopian plan. I said that the situation has a number of relevant concerns which DO NOT include milkmen, grain haulers, or what sounded like criticizing Bigtanker for whining.

Now, tell me, how is a person to get anything out of this post other than you running Bigtanker sh*t because he made an observation of fact:

Could always be worse... Milk haulers often times spend MORE time waiting at the dairy terminal than they do on the road... truckers hauling grain from small-town grainery to large terminals have to wait hours and hours to dump a single load in years with bumper crops...

It seems that you ran him sh*t he didn't have coming and then did the same to me. Learn how to read. It really helps when you try to fashion replies that actually address the post you are quoting.

 

[seedubs1]

Yeah, I understand that. But it's about as good as I can do.

You can't really do that. The way the distribution system works, you are only boycotting the local franchisee. BP Corporate's oil just gets sold somewhere else.

 

[CountryBoy19]

First, your prior post appeared to be an excoriation for whining as evidenced by your examples of other drivers who have such wait times routinely which have absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.

I was doing no such thing, you've interpreted it incorrectly. I was simply pointing out the positive that a horrible day on his job is still better than a routine day in other similar jobs. Did I think he was whining a little? Not at all, he was venting frustrations, you may call it whining, I don't. Never the less, my intentions was only to point out that it could be worse (as I said in my reply). And as much as you want to say dairy haulers and grain haulers (or any commodity hauler for that matter) is irrelevant to this discussion you'd be wrong. The situations are very similar, the people working those jobs are very similar, the issues that they face in those jobs are similar. I don't see how you can honestly say it's irrelevant unless you have absolutely no clue what goes on in the trucking industry.

that lack of business as usual has a number of relevant consequences which will affect our supply and cost

Did I say it wouldn't? It's very apparent that it will affect the supply and cost, anybody with half a brain on their shoulders can look at the whole-sale price of gas in the Midwest and see the evidence plain as day. The added wear & tear on pumps, added trucking expenses (due to sitting in lines) are all part of the reason the cost of fuel has spiked. It isn't just a because there was a perceived shortage. It's how the free-market works. Local shortage happens, retail costs rise giving larger margins which offsets the additional costs of bringing fuel in from out of the area. It all naturally balances itself out.

where dairymen and grain hauler do not affect the transport of fuel.

They actually do but that's for other economic discussions as the direct ties between them are irrelevant to this discussion. That being said, my comparison between them was absolutely relevant because the truckers hauling those commodities experience the same overhead etc that you referenced and they deal with the same frustrations that Bigtanker is dealing with, and that is all factored into your costs when you buy those items.

Third, I never said that plan B should function as smoothly as plan A. I simply accounted for the fact that it does not and will necessarily come with negative consequences.

I think those points are quite obvious to anybody with common sense but thanks for posting them anyways, it does bring to the forefront of thought the things that some people just don't realize.

Fourth, if I blasted you about anything, you would know it. If you were nearly as knowledgeable as you apparently believe you are, you would understanding that doubling the wear and tear on high-dollar items does not help the price of fuel go down, which is very relevant to the situation,

If you understood economics and how the supply chain works at all you would understand that without that doubling of wear & tear the price of fuel would actually go up because they couldn't get enough fuel into the area at all ... There are necessary evils that you have to work with during contingency operations; that doubling of wear & tear is one them, the truckers sitting in line is one of them. Without those things there wouldn't be ANY fuel coming into the area through other channels ... If you think you have a better plan to reduce that wear & tear and keep prices down the companies are most certainly interested and you could probably make some BIG BUCKS working for them... go pitch your idea to them and let them know what they are doing wrong...

I think it's also a bit presumptuous of you to assume what I do and do not know about the fuel industry. My family is a direct stock-holder in an Indiana refinery and has owned that stock since the company was started in the early 1900's. I've been to the refinery and have direct contacts within the fuel distribution system... My dad and brother also run a trucking business with multiple trucks on the road hauling commodities, some of them similar to the fuel products bigtanker is hauling.

Fifth, I never said I had any utopian plan.

What is your point then? You claim the system barely works when things are going well and it isn't working now. I'll counter that and say it's working as designed. The only options are to keep the infrastructure as-is, deal with the problems associated with plan b and get over it, or invest vast amounts of money in the infrastructure so we have an entire backup infrastructure to keep things running smooth even if plan a fails. The differences are that as it is currently when plan a fails you'll see temporary supply disruptions and price fluctuations. If they invest in a better plan b you'll see permanent price increases to cover the cost. Considering the market won't support those increases those capital investments are out of the question...

So basically you're criticizing the system saying how horrible it is but you have no realistic ideas or plans on how it could be better?

Now, tell me, how is a person to get anything out of this post other than you running Bigtanker sh*t because he made an observation of fact:

Seems to me you need to take some meds before reading too much into things. You're the one that copped an attitude. Like I said, I was just pointing out that within the same industry he works (commodity transportation) there are other guys that have it much worse than he does. As humans, we sometimes get caught up in our own little world that we forget how good we have it and we need a reality check for us to understand how good things area. I was only pointing out that what he considers a bad day is a good day in somebody else's book. I meant nothing offensive with it, I wasn't calling him a whiner. And if he took offense to it then that's between us, your thoughts and opinions are completely irrelevant.

 

[GhostofWinter]

.

 

[GhostofWinter]

I still boycott BP after their botching of the gulf oil leak a few years back. BP can go **** themselves.

Easier said than done. you ARE aware that a large number of the various gas station brands buy their product from BP? It's kind of like buying canned vegetables. LOTS go through the same processing plant with a different brand label attached at the end. Same with gasoline. BP in Whiting produces gasoline for many of the brands out there, At least in this area

 

[CountryBoy19]

Easier said than done. you ARE aware that a large number of the various gas station brands buy their product from BP? It's kind of like buying canned vegetables. LOTS go through the same processing plant with a different brand label attached at the end. Same with gasoline. BP in Whiting produces gasoline for many of the brands out there, At least in this area

That's true across most of the fuels industry. As a matter of fact, you'll often find BP branded stations buying fuel from non-BP refineries and distributors. As long as it meets their specs they'll buy it. If you think about it, there is no way it's economical for BP stations in Southern IN to truck fuel all the way from Northern Indiana when we have our own refineries down here that just fall under a different brand.

Most all distributors blend the specific blends and add specific additives right at the rack as the truck is being loaded for their various customers. I would wager that the vast majority of the gasoline in south-west Indiana comes from the Country-Mark refinery in Mt. Vernon or the Marathon refinery just across the state line from Vincennes, and it's all sold under various brands and names...

 

[9mmfan]

And an NBC national news stories about to air about how gas nationwide is about to drop below $2 a gallon. Looks like we'll miss out on that.

 

[Leo]

Maybe there's sarcasm there that it's just too early in the morning to register...but trust me, just because you're a manager, it does not necessarily follow you know how to run anything. You might have enough that know enough to keep the place from blowing up but to actually run it right and keep stuff maintained...hardly.

I worked at a Chrysler plant as a contractor when they promoted internally. The foreman over a row of machine tools was likely to have spent the last 20 years operating each machining station on that line. Since he could actually run them himself, he knew if a problem was operator, equipment, tooling or material. I also worked for Chrysler after they changed the rules that all new management had to have a college degree.

They started hiring frustrated school teachers, Music and arts majors, marketing and communications major graduates to run a machining plant. All they knew was that when no red warning lights lights were on, everything was fine and they needed to lay off technicians. When the red lights came on, they didn't know if they needed a plumber, electrician, tool maker, metallurgist, a nurse or a janitor. Since perventive maintenance was over looked, and people were laid off, everything was a big panic, and down time sky rocketed.

I only worked in one department at BP. The main manager there was someone who came up through the ranks and knew what was going on. It always looked like he did a great job and knew how, when, where and why to get things done. He did share with me that he thought the new managers with no refinery or chemical plant background were a real problem to production, safety and maintenance, not because they are stupid people, but because they just do not have real world, hands on knowlege.

The old generation mangers knew how to keep the plant running, the new generation only knows how to keep the forms filled out.

 

[Leo]

Maybe there's sarcasm there that it's just too early in the morning to register...but trust me, just because you're a manager, it does not necessarily follow you know how to run anything. You might have enough that know enough to keep the place from blowing up but to actually run it right and keep stuff maintained...hardly.

I worked at a Chrysler plant as a contractor when they promoted internally. The foreman over a row of machine tools was likely to have spent the last 20 years operating each machining station on that line. Since he could actually run them himself, he knew if a problem was operator, equipment, cutters or material. I also worked for Chrysler after they changed the rules that all new management had to have a college degree.

They started hiring frustrated school teachers, Music and arts majors, marketing and communications major graduates to run a machining plant. All they new was that when no red warning lights lights were on, everything was fine and they needed to lay off technicians. When the red lights came on, they didn't know if they needed a plumber, electrician, tool maker, metallurgist, a nurse or a janitor. Since perventive maintenance was over looked, and people were laid off, everything was a big panic, and down time sky rocketed.

I only worked in one department at BP. The main manager there was someone who came up through the ranks and knew what was going on. It always looked like he did a great job and knew how, wehen, where and why to get things done. He did share with me that he thought the new managers with no refinery or chemical plant background were a real problem to production, safety and maintenance, not because they are stupid people, but because they just do not have real world, hands on knowlege.

The old generation mangers knew how to keep the plant running, the new generation only knows how to keep the forms filled out.

 

[Miller Tyme]

Now, that's a party barge.

The wife and I have a saying," parties 50, sleeps 2"

 

[IndyDave1776]

I was doing no such thing, you've interpreted it incorrectly. I was simply pointing out the positive that a horrible day on his job is still better than a routine day in other similar jobs. Did I think he was whining a little? Not at all, he was venting frustrations, you may call it whining, I don't. Never the less, my intentions was only to point out that it could be worse (as I said in my reply). And as much as you want to say dairy haulers and grain haulers (or any commodity hauler for that matter) is irrelevant to this discussion you'd be wrong. The situations are very similar, the people working those jobs are very similar, the issues that they face in those jobs are similar. I don't see how you can honestly say it's irrelevant unless you have absolutely no clue what goes on in the trucking industry.


Did I say it wouldn't? It's very apparent that it will affect the supply and cost, anybody with half a brain on their shoulders can look at the whole-sale price of gas in the Midwest and see the evidence plain as day. The added wear & tear on pumps, added trucking expenses (due to sitting in lines) are all part of the reason the cost of fuel has spiked. It isn't just a because there was a perceived shortage. It's how the free-market works. Local shortage happens, retail costs rise giving larger margins which offsets the additional costs of bringing fuel in from out of the area. It all naturally balances itself out.



They actually do but that's for other economic discussions as the direct ties between them are irrelevant to this discussion. That being said, my comparison between them was absolutely relevant because the truckers hauling those commodities experience the same overhead etc that you referenced and they deal with the same frustrations that Bigtanker is dealing with, and that is all factored into your costs when you buy those items.


I think those points are quite obvious to anybody with common sense but thanks for posting them anyways, it does bring to the forefront of thought the things that some people just don't realize.


If you understood economics and how the supply chain works at all you would understand that without that doubling of wear & tear the price of fuel would actually go up because they couldn't get enough fuel into the area at all ... There are necessary evils that you have to work with during contingency operations; that doubling of wear & tear is one them, the truckers sitting in line is one of them. Without those things there wouldn't be ANY fuel coming into the area through other channels ... If you think you have a better plan to reduce that wear & tear and keep prices down the companies are most certainly interested and you could probably make some BIG BUCKS working for them... go pitch your idea to them and let them know what they are doing wrong...

I think it's also a bit presumptuous of you to assume what I do and do not know about the fuel industry. My family is a direct stock-holder in an Indiana refinery and has owned that stock since the company was started in the early 1900's. I've been to the refinery and have direct contacts within the fuel distribution system... My dad and brother also run a trucking business with multiple trucks on the road hauling commodities, some of them similar to the fuel products bigtanker is hauling.


What is your point then? You claim the system barely works when things are going well and it isn't working now. I'll counter that and say it's working as designed. The only options are to keep the infrastructure as-is, deal with the problems associated with plan b and get over it, or invest vast amounts of money in the infrastructure so we have an entire backup infrastructure to keep things running smooth even if plan a fails. The differences are that as it is currently when plan a fails you'll see temporary supply disruptions and price fluctuations. If they invest in a better plan b you'll see permanent price increases to cover the cost. Considering the market won't support those increases those capital investments are out of the question...

So basically you're criticizing the system saying how horrible it is but you have no realistic ideas or plans on how it could be better?


Seems to me you need to take some meds before reading too much into things. You're the one that copped an attitude. Like I said, I was just pointing out that within the same industry he works (commodity transportation) there are other guys that have it much worse than he does. As humans, we sometimes get caught up in our own little world that we forget how good we have it and we need a reality check for us to understand how good things area. I was only pointing out that what he considers a bad day is a good day in somebody else's book. I meant nothing offensive with it, I wasn't calling him a whiner. And if he took offense to it then that's between us, your thoughts and opinions are completely irrelevant.

Mea maxima f*cking culpa. I would have though that had you been so knowledgeable you would have actually said something relevant rather than talking about milkmen.

Oh, and by the way, did you happen to notice that the quoted post effectively takes the opposite position of your original 'so what, milkmen and grain haulers sit around that long every day'?

Oh, and while we are dealing with genealogy, two of my brothers and I operate a trucking company. You're right. I have never even heard a good story about it let alone have any clue what its about.