Breaking: Per SCOTUS, Same-Sex Marriage is now law of the land.

[indiucky]

As I said before, if there's a God, I'm clearly a write-off in his or her book.

You are not Lowe0.....It's hard to explain in a simple post so I wont even try....If you never believe anything in this life please believe this...God loves you...Always has, always will....You have free will to decide whether you should return that love....

 

[indiucky]

The bible is full of contradictions, inaccuracies, mistakes, and impossibilities. When taken at face value, the contents of that book are ridiculous. The Hulk only gets stronger and more impervious to damage as he gets angrier...that's the great thing about fiction, you can give the characters any attribute you want.

I read it cover to cover and I was shocked to see how well a book with so many authors, written over so many years, was able to flow so easily together and make so much sense.......Most Old and New Testament Scholars (of which many, if not most are just that, ancient manuscript scholars who are not religious and have made a career of studying ancient texts) seem to think that as well.....Evidence seems to be mounting of an ancient flood (which should be no surprise as the tale seems to be universal, albeit with different names of the characters involved)...Here recently we have uncovered evidence of the story of Exodus....Twenty years ago no historian worth his salt would have touched that story with a ten foot pole but recent discoveries in Egypt show that the Hebrews were in Egypt and seemed to have been slaves....(Hebrews used an alphabetic form of writing rather than a Hieroglyphic form and traces of this writing were found near Giza with the sentence "God help us.") The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls show that the Holy Bible (as written) is at a minimum 2300 years old...In other words what is written in your Old Testament you get in your current bible is exactly what was written in the Old Testament via the Dead Sea Scrolls...That is pretty amazing in itself....There were many scholars who had felt the Old Testament Prophecies concerning the coming Messiah had been added later by the Church to make the case for Christ as it were...After the Dead Sea Scrolls that line of logic disappeared from scholarly works...

Most ancient historians use the book of Luke to verify other works....It seems Luke was a pretty good historian and his descriptions of the region are a gold mine for secular historians trying to get a feel for the region.....

We tend to use our modern mind when looking at ancient texts and that can be a mistake (if one is intellectually honest) to do so...You mentioned the Hulk, which is a comic book character......Writing in ancient times was a serious endeavor...To think of the folks writing down these stories (many were an oral tradition passed down) as sort of comic book writers trying to sell cheap books to nerds who can't find a girl is not an accurate assessment of the ancient mind...

The best example I can give to try and explain that took place in the 1970's...Alex Haley, a writer, was researching a book of his family which he called "Roots"....He traveled to Africa and went to the village he was able to ascertain his ancestor was stolen from....Family lore had said his first ancestor's name was "Kunta Kinte" and that he had went to find some wood to make a drum....There was an older man in the village who sang a song that went back as far as the village could remember....Alex Haley had an interpreter with him and the old man began his song...Hours passed....More hours passed...An entire villages history was being sang to him...Lion kills, wars, feasts, famines, who married whom (all males marrying females I might add....) and eventually the line came up, "Kunta Kinte left to find wood for a drum and was never seen again...."

Alex Haley dropped to his knees and wept......

I guess what I am trying to say if you live in a comic book world you will have a hard time grasping ancient texts...Just because we like comics doesn't mean every bit of writing is a comic book story....

I mean I love "Gotham"....I just don't put it in the same category as Tacitus, Aristotle, Flavius Josephus, Plutarch's Lives, Tribal oral traditions, or the Holy Bible....Neither does Christopher Hitchens, an Atheist of some renown...He felt the King James Bible should be required reading from 7th grade through 12th grade.....As he said, "How else will one understand Western Literature without knowing the well from whence it sprang?" or something along those lines...It was on Cspan years ago....

 

[foszoe]

If I had to hazard a guess...with so few younger folks opting for getting married in the first place, it might make sense that the ones that do tend to be more compatible. (just a hypothesis).

More living together instead?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

More living together instead?

I've seen mention of that but I don't have links to back it up.

 

[deal me in]

I guess this has drifted off topic quite a bit. However, I have wondered about something to myself before that is related to this comment. One possible reason he hasn't provided proof of his existence is that God does not exist. Personally I don't believe that - from my perspective, I see abundant evidence that points to an intelligent creator. But I can't prove that to you or anyone else. Additionally, what kind of evidence would be sufficient? Wouldn't that depend on the particular person?

Anyways, a second possible reason for the lack of "proof" is that - if this all knowing, all powerful creator really has all those attributes, he would have an understanding far beyond our ability to comprehend. I've wondered - what if everything has been set up the way it has - because it needs to be that way for a particular reason that we are unable to understand from our perspective. I mean - if God just appeared to everyone personally and said - read my book and let me know if you want to follow me or if you'd rather follow that jerk down there. Who would refuse him? Well, some probably... But what if there is some reason you need to make the choice yourself based on faith alone - who knows! I'm just thinking out loud...

Thanks for the reply. Seeing evidence for an intelligent creator is one thing. Assigning the characteristics of the God of Abraham to that creator is quite another. I just think it's extremely unlikely that the Biblical God exists and if he does, he doesn't meet my moral standards. He would have to change a few things in order to secure my worship and obedience.

 

[steveh_131]

Thanks for the reply. Seeing evidence for an intelligent creator is one thing. Assigning the characteristics of the God of Abraham to that creator is quite another. I just think it's extremely unlikely that the Biblical God exists and if he does, he doesn't meet my moral standards. He would have to change a few things in order to secure my worship and obedience.

If there is a being powerful and intelligent enough to create the universe as we know it, do you honestly think you could see things from his perspective? Could you grasp his world-view enough to pass judgment upon his morality?

I would say that 90% of the criticisms of God's morality are complete misunderstandings of scripture. Silliness like claiming the Bible allows us to condone slavery, rape, murder, etc.

Once you narrow it down, there are still some truths about God that make me uncomfortable. Things that strike me as 'unfair', at times. I remember I was grappling with some of those points and came to a passage in my bible study. Job was [understandably] lamenting his life and requiring answers and explanations from God.

1Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:2“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[SUP]a[/SUP] shouted for joy?


This is only the beginning of God's answer to him. It continues like this for quite a while. Did a pretty good job of demonstrating my infinitely limited understanding of God, morality, and the universe.

It doesn't mean I stop thinking, wondering, and studying. It does mean that there are undeniable aspects of God's nature that I can not yet understand. Those things need not undermine my faith in His goodness.

 

[John317]

I think that regardless of one believes that they shouldn't be against other people being allowed to live their lives as they want assuming they aren't hurting anyone which same sex couples certainly are not harming anyone. I don't understand why so many Christians feel obligated to or entitled to decide what is morally acceptable and what isn't and be so vocal when passing judgement (calling one a sinner is passing judgment). One doesn't need to believe in a god to have good/strong morale's just do a google search of secular parents vs religious and you will see many feel strongly that this is true. If we as a society need to go to church to know it's wrong to lie/cheat/steal then their is something wrong.

Same sex marriages will allow people that will be couples regardless of a law to have basic legal rights- like seeing their dying partner in a hospital and other legal rights. Denying the rights to same sex couples and having a hatred toward them or calling them sinners to me seems like it would be a good christian value to me. Those that seem to be so anti-gay in the name of religion are going to push people away from religion- it is well documented that America is becoming "less christian" and I think its in part due to issues like this.

 

[deal me in]

If there is a being powerful and intelligent enough to create the universe as we know it, do you honestly think you could see things from his perspective? Could you grasp his world-view enough to pass judgment upon his morality?

I would say that 90% of the criticisms of God's morality are complete misunderstandings of scripture. Silliness like claiming the Bible allows us to condone slavery, rape, murder, etc.

Once you narrow it down, there are still some truths about God that make me uncomfortable. Things that strike me as 'unfair', at times. I remember I was grappling with some of those points and came to a passage in my bible study. Job was [understandably] lamenting his life and requiring answers and explanations from God.

1Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:2“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[SUP]a[/SUP] shouted for joy?


This is only the beginning of God's answer to him. It continues like this for quite a while. Did a pretty good job of demonstrating my infinitely limited understanding of God, morality, and the universe.

It doesn't mean I stop thinking, wondering, and studying. It does mean that there are undeniable aspects of God's nature that I can not yet understand. Those things need not undermine my faith in His goodness.

If you're going to demand my obedience and worship it's not fair to be "too complicated" for me to understand. If you're going to allow cancer to be inflicted on innocent children while corrupt, evil adults live in good health you need to explain why. If God is all powerful, he can be as uncomplicated as he wants. Think of it this way. Would you condemn your children to being burned in the basement for eternity for the "crime" of not loving you? The morality debate is completely academic for me since I don't believe God exists and I'll admit that it's rare for anyone to change their minds, so I hope what I have to say is just accepted as a differing viewpoint as part of a civil discussion.

 

[cobber]

If you're going to demand my obedience and worship it's not fair to be "too complicated" for me to understand. If you're going to allow cancer to be inflicted on innocent children while corrupt, evil adults live in good health you need to explain why. If God is all powerful, he can be as uncomplicated as he wants. Think of it this way. Would you condemn your children to being burned in the basement for eternity for the "crime" of not loving you? The morality debate is completely academic for me since I don't believe God exists and I'll admit that it's rare for anyone to change their minds, so I hope what I have to say is just accepted as a differing viewpoint as part of a civil discussion.

The universe without God is even more complicated. The 'what' alone, without getting into 'how' or 'why'...

 

[MisterChester]

The bible tends to give God human characteristics, and I think he's beyond that. Humans do not have the mental capacity to understand. It's just easier to say "do good things because they are good, not because a 2000 year old book that has contradictions in it told you to".

 

[steveh_131]

If God is all powerful, he can be as uncomplicated as he wants.

I disagree with this. The Bible often compares our relationship with God as the parent/child relationships that we are more familiar with.

Does a child always understand the actions of the parent? Can they fully understand it? Of course not.

Do you still have to be a good parent, even when your child can not understand it? Absolutely.

A child's perspective is microscopic compared to that of an adult. Even a teenager lacks the worldly experience to fully comprehend the rules and restrictions set forth by his or her parents. Nevertheless, we teach them to obey first, understand later. My son had no idea why he wasn't allowed to run across the road. He couldn't yet comprehend the damage that could be caused to his body by an automobile, and he lacked the language skills for me to explain it to him. I still had to discipline him when he tried to do it.

This is not to say that 'discipline' is the reason for every action of God that seems unfair to us. That is certainly not true. I am simply presenting examples that demonstrate the difficulties of using a human perspective to understand the actions of a God with an infinite perspective. A God who exists outside of time, who created everything that we see and everything that we don't see. A God who knows the infinite ripple effect of every event that takes place.

I think it is downright silly to assume that a God capable of all of this is a God who owes us an explanation for anything, or that we could understand that explanation should it be provided.

 

[Alpo]

I've heard this before from lots of skeptics / non believers. So, give us INGO Believers your top 2 "contradictions" & let's see if we can prove said contradictions false or true.

The Book of Job.

QED

 

[MisterChester]

The Book of Job.

QED

That plus God has a higher body count than Satan does. If this God "is" love, the case for it is hard.

 

[steveh_131]

The Book of Job.

Care to be more specific?

 

[Alpo]

I saw a Lewis Black show one night. He made a point that I thought was valid on the Old Testament. The books of the OT were writtern FOR Jews, BY Jews. If you aren't Jewish by birth and culture, you probably don't "get it".

 

[Alpo]

Care to be more specific?

Have you read it? Have you read any of the critical commentaries on it....say Jung's "Answer to Job"?

 

[NoAdmiration]

There are so many real things we have to worry about. Two adults getting married has no real effect on the daily lives of anyone other than than those two adults. I have never understood why a disinterested third party would have any opinion about it.

I know how irritating it is when other people have opinions about what guns I should and should not own.

 

[Woobie]

Then why not just punish those responsible?

Well, we all are, so He is.

James 2:10 KJV
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point , he is guilty of all.

John 8:34 KJV
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

James 1:14-15 KJV
[14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. [15] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Romans 5:12 KJV
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[deal me in]

The universe without God is even more complicated. The 'what' alone, without getting into 'how' or 'why'...

Let's leave the universe out of it for a minute. How would the world be different if God didn't exist?

 

[Rookie]

Let's leave the universe out of it for a minute. How would the world be different if God didn't exist?

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.