Call from ATF: My stolen gun connected to triple homicide

[Mark106]

Well, WTH, now that I'm out of Illinois and living in Indiana, I supposed I could live with seeing state-issued ID to confirm a Hoosier state resident-to-resident sale...but that to me does seem the minimum that one is required to do...and I ain't going below the minimum.
If someone won't even show me an ID to establish he's of legal age and of the same state as me, I'm not that worried about whether I'll have to wait a little longer to sell the firearm, or just use it as a trader on something else at a federally licensed dealer's store.
Example, and this happened to me literally today: I'm selling a fairly nice, not inexpensive shotgun. Illinois resident at a gun club in Illinois wanted me to sell it directly to him, there and then, cash and carry. I said, "Nope, I'll knock $25 off the price to cover or help you with the transfer fee, and I'll drive it to your FFL holder."
Dude tried to convince me we didn't need to do that, he'd bought a lot of guns, etc.
Yeah, fine ... wasn't interested in keeping him legal; was interested in keeping me legal.

 

[bwframe]

Meh, most of the time a check of the INGOers post history and itrader results will tell you all you need to know for a trade.

I'll show a DL and LTCH if it's required, but I'd be unhappy to sign a bill of sale, unless it was explained in advance of the sale.

.......................

OK, so in relation to this thread, what documentation will the police require from you to show ownership of the firearm you are claiming?

 

[DoggyDaddy]

As a C&R license holder, I'm required to record certain info in my bound book whether buying or selling a C&R eligible firearm (over 50 years old with some exceptions). I always let the buyer/seller know that in advance though. Most don't have a problem with it, but I've had a couple of deals fall through because of it, and that's cool. No skin off my nose. I explain that it's Uncle Sam's rules, not mine. And the info stays in my bound book, not called in to NICS like a 4473 for purchasing a new gun from a regular 01 FFL.

 

[DadSmith]

I usually ask if they are allowed to own a firearm by state and federal law. If they lie it's on them. Everyone I've sold to has had a permit.

 

[Mark106]

In reference to only my posts, I'm more worried about showing -- or at least being able to truthfully say -- that I sold Firearm A, B or C to an Indiana resident, cause a "whoopsies" on that one isn't a state violation. And I live in a state-line border town.
So, yeah, I'm going to see ID. If that offends anyone here ... shrug.
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I don't ever want to say to an investigator, prosecutor, judge or even my own attorney: "But I checked on INGO, and he seemed cool."

 

[MCgrease08]

Meh, most of the time a check of the INGOers post history and itrader results will tell you all you need to know for a trade.

I'll show a DL and LTCH if it's required, but I'd be unhappy to sign a bill of sale, unless it was explained in advance of the sale.

.......................

OK, so in relation to this thread, what documentation will the police require from you to show ownership of the firearm you are claiming?

We haven't gotten that far yet. Originally I was told it would end up back in DC under ATF custody and there would be forms required to get it back. The agent I've been working with says he is trying to work it with the US Attorney in KY so I can avoid that route, but we're still a few years away from that.

As far as proving it's mine? My entire involvement in the felon in possession case was based around proving that I owned the gun and that it was stolen in Indy. As part of my testimony I provided photos of the gun and the receipt from the FFL I bought it from. The prosecutor also introduced into evidence copies of the police report I filed with IMPD when it was stolen, and the insurance claim. There is no doubt it was mine.

As far as getting it back, I'm sure I'll have to do a background check to prove I'm a proper person before they release it back to me.

 

[bwframe]

Thank you for that information.

I wonder where that leaves folks with a lack documentation? Say for example, firearms legally purchased through private sales that have no paper trail of ownership?

 

[Dead Duck]

I always know which gun is mine because I etched my name on them.

 

[Ingomike]

Thank you for that information.

I wonder where that leaves folks with a lack documentation? Say for example, firearms legally purchased through private sales that have no paper trail of ownership?

Just a guess, but not getting the gun back. And in a similar situation I don't want it back. Just moving on...

 

[bwframe]

That begs the question then, if it's legally your gun and the police will not release it to you, can you then file the loss claim with your insurance?

 

[MCgrease08]

Thank you for that information.

I wonder where that leaves folks with a lack documentation? Say for example, firearms legally purchased through private sales that have no paper trail of ownership?

IMHO everyone should have at least photos of all guns with serial numbers visible on a thumb stick or cloud drive to provide to the insurance company in case of theft of fire damage.

I had actually spent a weekend doing exactly that about a month prior to the break in. Not just guns, but jewelry, personal electronics, etc. After the burglary I just pulled photos of the relevant items and emailed them to the detective and insurance Co.

 

[bwframe]

Cool. So the photos of gun's serial numbers do show possession/ownership? Not necessarily with the cops, but with the insurance companies?

 

[Ingomike]

Cool. So the photos of gun's serial numbers do show possession/ownership? Not necessarily with the cops, but with the insurance companies?

Most homeowners insurance will not cover the typical Ingoer if all your stuff is stolen. There are deductibles first then policy limits unless you have scheduled them, at which time they will likely want SN of what they are covering. So yes you could get coverage from your standard Homeowners policy if it was stolen from your truck subject to above and the pic would likely work.

As for cops, if they are contacting you they know you owned it, what would you need a pic for? You then need to tell them how it left your possession, not prove ownership...

 

[bwframe]

Most homeowners insurance will not cover the typical Ingoer if all your stuff is stolen. There are deductibles first then policy limits unless you have scheduled them, at which time they will likely want SN of what they are covering. So yes you could get coverage from your standard Homeowners policy if it was stolen from your truck subject to above and the pic would likely work.

As for cops, if they are contacting you they know you owned it, what would you need a pic for? You then need to tell them how it left your possession, not prove ownership...

Right. Armscare Plus policy for me.

I'd like to know exactly what is required for the police to release your recovered firearm to you. Just because things are obvious, doesn't necessarily mean the department will see it that way.

In my experience, this is sometimes agenda driven. I have had to dig out old receipts to "show ownership," to claim a firearm that was documented as taken from my vehicle at an accident scene.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Well, WTH, now that I'm out of Illinois and living in Indiana, I supposed I could live with seeing state-issued ID to confirm a Hoosier state resident-to-resident sale...but that to me does seem the minimum that one is required to do...and I ain't going below the minimum.
If someone won't even show me an ID to establish he's of legal age and of the same state as me, I'm not that worried about whether I'll have to wait a little longer to sell the firearm, or just use it as a trader on something else at a federally licensed dealer's store.
Example, and this happened to me literally today: I'm selling a fairly nice, not inexpensive shotgun. Illinois resident at a gun club in Illinois wanted me to sell it directly to him, there and then, cash and carry. I said, "Nope, I'll knock $25 off the price to cover or help you with the transfer fee, and I'll drive it to your FFL holder."
Dude tried to convince me we didn't need to do that, he'd bought a lot of guns, etc.
Yeah, fine ... wasn't interested in keeping him legal; was interested in keeping me legal.

Technically the minimum per state law is:
A: Knowing they ARE an Indiana resident
B: NOT knowing they are a prohibited person. (you dont have to know they ARE proper; ignorance of their improper status is OK)

So legally you should have them flash their DL and that is all and you have done the CYA. You know they are a resident and dont know them to be improper. (now if its your sister's brother in law that she has told you stories about him doing time... Thats a no-go) THAT is the bare minimum. Some of us prefer to go just a tad bit further.

IMHO everyone should have at least photos of all guns with serial numbers visible on a thumb stick [STRIKE]or cloud drive[/STRIKE] to provide to the insurance company in case of theft of fire damage.

I had actually spent a weekend doing exactly that about a month prior to the break in. Not just guns, but jewelry, personal electronics, etc. After the burglary I just pulled photos of the relevant items and emailed them to the detective and insurance Co.

Not the cloud. Google and Facebook have already shown prototypes of their ability to read gun serials and make them cross referenced to the owner of the file store. And that's just what they have told the public.

I would suggest a thumb drive in your safe deposit box or your desk drawer/locker at work. Or a parent's/sibling's house. Just a copy of the pics other than in your lock box at home.

Most homeowners insurance will not cover the typical Ingoer if all your stuff is stolen. There are deductibles first then policy limits unless you have scheduled them, at which time they will likely want SN of what they are covering. So yes you could get coverage from your standard Homeowners policy if it was stolen from your truck subject to above and the pic would likely work.

As for cops, if they are contacting you they know you owned it, what would you need a pic for? You then need to tell them how it left your possession, not prove ownership...

Yep. At least with State Farm, the standard homeowners limit is $2,000. Shop around because you can get decent priced policies where you do not have to itemize/record your property ahead of time. Avoid those. As I recall I could get a rider on my homeowners that would cover ANY type of valuables (jewelry, furs, guns, tools, etc) and only require you to list serials of items above a specific individual amount. (a Glock or 1911, no. A rare $10,000 Italian O/U, yes) All you had to do was provide serials and probably receipts at the time of the claim to collect.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Technically the minimum per state law is:
A: Knowing they ARE an Indiana resident
B: NOT knowing they are a prohibited person. (you dont have to know they ARE proper; ignorance of their improper status is OK)

So legally you should have them flash their DL and that is all and you have done the CYA. You know they are a resident and dont know them to be improper. (now if its your sister's brother in law that she has told you stories about him doing time... Thats a no-go) THAT is the bare minimum. Some of us prefer to go just a tad bit further.



Not the cloud. Google and Facebook have already shown prototypes of their ability to read gun serials and make them cross referenced to the owner of the file store. And that's just what they have told the public.

I would suggest a thumb drive in your safe deposit box or your desk drawer/locker at work. Or a parent's/sibling's house. Just a copy of the pics other than in your lock box at home.


Yep. At least with State Farm, the standard homeowners limit is $2,000. Shop around because you can get decent priced policies where you do not have to itemize/record your property ahead of time. Avoid those. As I recall I could get a rider on my homeowners that would cover ANY type of valuables (jewelry, furs, guns, tools, etc) and only require you to list serials of items above a specific individual amount. (a Glock or 1911, no. A rare $10,000 Italian O/U, yes) All you had to do was provide serials and probably receipts at the time of the claim to collect.

I have State Farm and mine is a separate Personal Property policy. No minimum value - I list everything with a picture, description (including caliber), serial number and value. Whenever I add or sell something, the document gets updated and sent to them. I've started waiting to update it if I've been on a buying spree lately just to keep them from losing their minds. When I "pause", then I send them the updates (usually 2 or 3 guns at a time). That was per the advice of my agent to give underwriting a chance to "catch up".

I've also had to explain why certain guns don't have serial numbers several times (anything made prior to 1968 wasn't required to have one - some do, some don't).

 

[MCgrease08]

Bump:

I called the ATF agent today since it's been almost two years since we spoke. No update on the murder trials yet. Nothing has been scheduled for the state of Kentucky case, let alone anything federal.

Agent says he's optimistic there will be a state trial sometime before the end of 2023. If that happens I get to wait for the years of appeals to work through. So not getting my beloved Colt back anytime soon.

The good news is that the agent tells me he set it up so at the end of all this the gun has to be released back to me. They can't keep it or destroy it. Even if he retires or dies it comes back to me.

I know that the word of the ATF is pretty much meaningless, but it still made me feel a little better.

 

[STFU]

Bump:

I called the ATF agent today since it's been almost two years since we spoke. No update on the murder trials yet. Nothing has been scheduled for the state of Kentucky case, let alone anything federal.

Agent says he's optimistic there will be a state trial sometime before the end of 2023. If that happens I get to wait for the years of appeals to work through. So not getting my beloved Colt back anytime soon.

The good news is that the agent tells me he set it up so at the end of all this the gun has to be released back to me. They can't keep it or destroy it. Even if he retires or dies it comes back to me.

I know that the word of the ATF is pretty much meaningless, but it still made me feel a little better.

Will he put that in writing?
(Like you said, his word is pretty much worthless.)
I hope you get it back "someday," in the meantime...don't hold your breath.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Will he put that in writing?
(Like you said, his word is pretty much worthless.)
I hope you get it back "someday," in the meantime...don't hold your breath.

They'd find a reason to not honor the contract. "things changed that we didnt forsee, etc"

 

[churchmouse]

I hate to say it but it will not be in good shape and most likely is not at this time.
They have no respect for our treasures. None.