Call from ATF: My stolen gun connected to triple homicide

[Ingomike]

I guess my point is this: If something does go south and you are the last legit owner that the John Law family can find, at least one of 'em is coming to visit. Personally, I think the fastest way to get 'em out of your life is to show 'em a factual bill of sale.
Maybe I'm wrong.
I'm certainly not a lawyer.

You will lose sales of the off the grid buyer, not criminals, folks that don't think it the governments business what they own, thus reducing the value of your sale. If an off the grid buyer can get a new SW for X why buy yours at almost X if there is the paperwork involved, might as well buy the new one...

 

[MCgrease08]

Just curious, why do you dislike a bill of sale on a private party sale?

I wouldn't say I "dislike" a bill of sale, but I don't see any need to go above and beyond what the law requires. When selling guns through a private party sale the only requirement I'm concerned with is ensuring that I'm selling to another Indiana resident. I don't personally know any prohibited persons so I'm not concerned with that aspect, nor do I have the resources to look into a stranger's background.

I don't see the need to ask for a bill of sale when I sell other items like furniture, power tools, old bikes or anything else. Guns are no different. The government has no right to know what legal property free citizens sell amongst themselves. It's none of their business.

You want to do a bill of sale? Cool by me. It's still relatively free country. I wouldn't even say a B.O.S. would be a deal breaker if it's a gun I really wanted to buy, but in general I think it's an unnecessary exercise.

 

[IndyIN]

I guess my point is this: If something does go south and you are the last legit owner that the John Law family can find, at least one of 'em is coming to visit. Personally, I think the fastest way to get 'em out of your life is to show 'em a factual bill of sale.
Maybe I'm wrong.
I'm certainly not a lawyer.

Just debating, not arguing. So what is a factual bill of sale? I piece of paper, by itself, with a printed name and a chicken scratched signature and no other substantiating info (e.g. a copy of a DL) probably is not going to get law enforcement out of my life quickly. I've also considered if attempting to exceed the requirement while not quite getting there helps or hurts.


For the record, I've never walked away from a purchase because someone wanted a bill of sale. I did have to inform someone that I would not furnish my SSN (yes, they really asked for it).

 

[churchmouse]

Just debating, not arguing. So what is a factual bill of sale? I piece of paper, by itself, with a printed name and a chicken scratched signature and no other substantiating info (e.g. a copy of a DL) probably is not going to get law enforcement out of my life quickly. I've also considered if attempting to exceed the requirement while not quite getting there helps or hurts.


For the record, I've never walked away from a purchase because someone wanted a bill of sale. I did have to inform someone that I would not furnish my SSN (yes, they really asked for it).

You can "SEE" my DL if that gives you the warm and fuzzys but just see it. No LTCH. Just me.

I have a circle of people and Ingo. If you do not know who I am on here then you are not an active participating member and I will most likely pass anyway. Depends on what we are dealing with and how badly I want/need it. There is that want/need thing again.

 

[Rookie]

I won't even consider a private purchase that requires DL, LTCH, or bill of sale.

 

[Ingomike]

I think it a prudent practice to simply follow the law and both parties show Indiana ID. That way if by chance it was an ATF sting you followed the letter of the law. That is all that is required and all anyone needs do. Obviously if it is someone thought of as a brother you are close enough to likely know. BUT, I have had close friends keep their out of state license for years. I would not sell with them...

 

[Ingomike]

I won't even consider a private purchase that requires DL, LTCH, or bill of sale.

If you don't show DL, how does the other party know you are a resident of Indiana?

 

[Cameramonkey]

If you don't show DL, how does the other party know you are a resident of Indiana?

I prefer to see the DL and pink permission slip to CYA as that covers both bases (resident + Proper person) But agree that a bill of sale or recording info is too much.

Thanks to our fine bill of rights, if something happens, they arent going to instantly take you downtown and grill you just because you owned a gun at one time that was later used in a crime and dont have a written bill of sale. You tell them you sold it x months/years ago to a guy from INGO and his username is ________ and he told you his first name was Chuck. You glanced at his DL and PPS to verify he was a proper person and moved on with your life. They might ask where you were on x day and if you know y person, but unless the circle is very tight (you sold it to your brother and his ex GF was victim) they'll simply move on, possibly trying to get more info from TexKev to track down the INGOer because you arent likely tied to the crime.

 

[Dead Duck]

Here's the thing....
I lived in CA most my life. We were programed to do a detailed paper trail on cars and guns. Religiously.
The second my guns crossed the border, all that dropped off. Unfortunately, most people that grew up in commie states and went through all of that crap will probably bring that mentality with them. Some may never shed that particular vice.

It's like telling an accountant to stop using his pocket protector. Good luck.



I won't let anyone's personal requirements get in the way of buying a gun that I've been searching for or to just getting a decent gun deal. Regardless of how I feel about it, I will stand on my head if that's what it takes to get a good deal. Depending on the gun of course.

How many of you will actually lose that unicorn deal because of your pride.







"You must first swallow your pride before you can ever get a head." - My hooker was a great philosopher.

 

[IndyIN]

You can "SEE" my DL if that gives you the warm and fuzzys but just see it. No LTCH. Just me.

I have a circle of people and Ingo. If you do not know who I am on here then you are not an active participating member and I will most likely pass anyway. Depends on what we are dealing with and how badly I want/need it. There is that want/need thing again.

Just so it is clear, I am NOT advocating for a copy of a DL. I'm merely saying a bill of sale isn't the foolproof thing that some people seem to believe it is, and if someone really wants to go that path, they need more for a true record than the chicken scratch signature that I mentioned.


My typical approach to a sale was to know a little about the person through the private message processing and posting history on this forum. I would use reasonable judgment, and if I felt the person was sketchy, I'd walk away. I'd also glance at their vehicle and license plate to see if it was in state. 90% of the time, the other party had their DL out to quickly show me. I'm not an expert on interpreting Indiana drivers licenses and did not pretend to be one


At the end of the day, I follow the law and used good judgment.

 

[Rookie]

If you don't show DL, how does the other party know you are a resident of Indiana?

Pretty simple.

You: are you a resident of Indiana?
Me: yup
You: are you a proper person?
Me: yup.

 

[churchmouse]

I won't even consider a private purchase that requires DL, LTCH, or bill of sale.

Nope. I move right past it. Probably 20+ items through my time here.

 

[churchmouse]

If you don't show DL, how does the other party know you are a resident of Indiana?

If you buy here and follow the forum its easy enough. Outside that I get it. Its the members that do this. Nope. I will find it elsewhere. Just the spirit of the thing I guess.

 

[Rookie]

Section 35-47-2-7 Prohibited sales or transfers. [Effective until July 1, 2019]
(a) Except an individual acting within a parent-minor child or guardian-minor protected person relationship or any other
individual who is also acting in compliance with IC 35-47-10 (governing children and firearms), a person may not sell,
give, or in any other manner transfer the ownership or possession of a handgun or assault weapon to any person under
18 years of age.
(b) A person who knowingly or intentionally sells, gives, or in any other manner transfers the ownership or possession of a
handgun to another person who the person knows:
(1) is ineligible for any reason other than the person's age to purchase or otherwise receive from a dealer a handgun;
or
(2) intends to use the handgun to commit a crime;
commits criminal transfer of a handgun, a Level 5 felony. However, the offense is a Level 3 felony if the other person
uses the handgun to commit murder (IC 35-42-1-1).


Explain to me how seeing a DL, LTCH, and having a bill of sale ensures that you're selling to a proper person. "Knowingly or intentionally" is the key phrase. Since I have no way of running a background check, I'll rely on my gut and the person's honesty. If he lies to me, that doesn't change the "knowingly or intentionally" since I am not a mind reader.

 

[churchmouse]

Here's the thing....
I lived in CA most my life. We were programed to do a detailed paper trail on cars and guns. Religiously.
The second my guns crossed the border, all that dropped off. Unfortunately, most people that grew up in commie states and went through all of that crap will probably bring that mentality with them. Some may never shed that particular vice.

It's like telling an accountant to stop using his pocket protector. Good luck.



I won't let anyone's personal requirements get in the way of buying a gun that I've been searching for or to just getting a decent gun deal. Regardless of how I feel about it, I will stand on my head if that's what it takes to get a good deal. Depending on the gun of course.

How many of you will actually lose that unicorn deal because of your pride.







"You must first swallow your pride before you can ever get a head." - My hooker was a great philosopher.

But I can honestly say I can not think of any gun that I would have to lower my standards to get. I am happy in my small well defined box...

 

[churchmouse]

Just so it is clear, I am NOT advocating for a copy of a DL. I'm merely saying a bill of sale isn't the foolproof thing that some people seem to believe it is, and if someone really wants to go that path, they need more for a true record than the chicken scratch signature that I mentioned.


My typical approach to a sale was to know a little about the person through the private message processing and posting history on this forum. I would use reasonable judgment, and if I felt the person was sketchy, I'd walk away. I'd also glance at their vehicle and license plate to see if it was in state. 90% of the time, the other party had their DL out to quickly show me. I'm not an expert on interpreting Indiana drivers licenses and did not pretend to be one


At the end of the day, I follow the law and used good judgment.

Oh no knock on what makes you feel secure. I get it.
I am just saying I have my own way of looking at it. If I am buying from an Ingo member and they have no idea that yes, I live in Indiana and yes I build/modify guns at an alarming rate then the entire reason for the active members rule is wasted.

 

[Dead Duck]

Section 35-47-2-7 Prohibited sales or transfers. [Effective until July 1, 2019]
(a) Except an individual acting within a parent-minor child or guardian-minor protected person relationship or any other
individual who is also acting in compliance with IC 35-47-10 (governing children and firearms), a person may not sell,
give, or in any other manner transfer the ownership or possession of a handgun or assault weapon to any person under
18 years of age.
(b) A person who knowingly or intentionally sells, gives, or in any other manner transfers the ownership or possession of a
handgun to another person who the person knows:
(1) is ineligible for any reason other than the person's age to purchase or otherwise receive from a dealer a handgun;
or
(2) intends to use the handgun to commit a crime;
commits criminal transfer of a handgun, a Level 5 felony. However, the offense is a Level 3 felony if the other person
uses the handgun to commit murder (IC 35-42-1-1).

Wait just a minute!

That is the Indiana's codes? Why does it even mention "Assault Weapons"? Does it specify what the hell those are?
As far as I know, that term was invented by the anti-gunners and should be purged from the english language. It's meaningless.

 

[Rookie]

Wait just a minute!

That is the Indiana's codes? Why does it even mention "Assault Weapons"? Does it specify what the hell those are?
As far as I know, that term was invented by the anti-gunners and should be purged from the english language. It's meaningless.

Right? I best not sell a hammer to you since you're a criminal! Wait a second, let me see your DL and LTCH. Here's a bill of sale...

 

[KellyinAvon]

Wait just a minute!

That is the Indiana's codes? Why does it even mention "Assault Weapons"? Does it specify what the hell those are?
As far as I know, that term was invented by the anti-gunners and should be purged from the english language. It's meaningless.

I was thinking Senator Tomes got rid of all the "assault weapons" references in the 2019 Legislative session by changing it to "machine guns". The work never ends...

 

[OurDee]

"Assault Weapons"? Knives, nun chuckas, pointy stick, etc.