Can a felon own a muzzle loader?????

[bigus_D]

My muzzleloader was purchased on the internet and delivered to my front door (can't remember the carrier). It was there, on my front porch, when I got home from work one day... with everything inside the box required to load and "fire" the "arm".

No background check.
No signature.
No adult present.
Most likely across state lines.
Completely legal in every way, right?

Muzzleloaders are NOT the same as other firearms, IMHO. I'm not a lawyer though.

 

[CoCa Cola Cowboy]

I was always under the impression that in the state Of IN felons could owner a black power gun, and u also don't have to have a handgun license to carry a black powder handgun.

 

[n3v3rtrstamor0n]

yes muzzle loader only.this does not include a shotgun....

 

[EPD1102]

It depends on the felony conviction. A regular felon can own a muzzleloader since it's not technically a firearm. A "convicted dangerous felon" such as a rapist, frug dealer, etc. can't own anything that fires a projectile by means of an explosion, including a muzzleloader.

 

[Walt_Jabsco]

It depends on the felony conviction. A regular felon can own a muzzleloader since it's not technically a firearm. A "convicted dangerous felon" such as a rapist, frug dealer, etc. can't own anything that fires a projectile by means of an explosion, including a muzzleloader.

I know I'm really worried about the "frug" dealers in my neighborhood. Keep frugs off the streets, guys.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Muzzleloaders are NOT the same as other firearms, IMHO.

Under Indiana law, not federal, muzzleloaders are the same as other firearms.

A "convicted dangerous felon" such as a rapist, frug dealer, etc. can't own anything that fires a projectile by means of an explosion, including a muzzleloader.

A convicted dangerous felon? Do you mean Serious Violent Felon? Are you working the graveyard shift? Officer, I'd like to report a frug dealer!

If you mean SVF, then yes, you are correct.

1. What type of felony?

2. What type of firearm?


I need to make a flow chart.

 

[bigus_D]

Under Indiana law, not federal, muzzleloaders are the same as other firearms.

So... under Indiana law, it is legal to buy/sell a firearm (pistol, rifle, muzzleloader, shotgun) over the internet with no background check, then ship that firearm and have it delivered with no signature/no adult present? I guess that makes sense. Federal law dictates the terms of FFL transfers and such.

I guess Federal Law is what prevents you from transfering a pistol or rifle (Federal "firearms") but allows muzzleloaders. right?

(this is getting complicated)

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Big, think of federal and state law as Venn diagrams, see if that helps.

In this case Indiana law is the smaller circle inside the larger federal circle.

 

[nate1865]

There is no background check to purchase a muzzleloader, by the way. I just bought one. Of course I don't have an arrest record either - it was neat to buy a firearm with no hassle.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

nate, because the background check is . . . federal law.

I need to do that Venn diagram.

 

[kludge]

This is up to interpretation of the law. Indiana says that muzzleloaders are not firearms, however the ATF issued a ruling stating that only muzzleloaders that use primers other than the 209 are not firearms. Indiana has not made a ruling as a case has not went to court.

ANNOUNCEMENT 98-7
MUZZLE LOADING WEAPONS THAT USE A MODERN IGNITION SYSTEM
On November 6, 1997, the Director signed Industry Circular No. 98-2. It read as follows:
All Federal firearms licensees and others concerned.
Purpose. The purpose of this circular is to clarify the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) position regarding the classification of muzzle loading weapons that use modern primers for ignition.

<snip>

That's very interesting. First time I've heard it. Strange though, because you can still mail order them, the only kind that need a 4473 are the T/C that can have rifle barrels put on them.

 

[kludge]

and u also don't have to have a handgun license to carry a black powder handgun.

[STRIKE]Yes. You do.[/STRIKE]

edited: keep reading

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Kludge, good catch.

Not only are blackpowder handguns in need of a LTCH, but inoperable blackpowder handguns need the LTCH.

STATE OF INDIANA, Appellant-Plaintiff, vs. ANDREW GIBBS,

and u also don't have to have a handgun license to carry a black powder handgun.

This notion is incorrect. See Gibbs supra.

That's very interesting. First time I've heard it. Strange though, because you can still mail order them, the only kind that need a 4473 are the T/C that can have rifle barrels put on them.

kludge, it was a '97 letter ruling which was put down by Congress (Senators from Iowa) shortly thereafter.

 

[kludge]

I wonder if stage props are considered "firearms".

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I wonder if stage props are considered "firearms".

Maybe. What are you using as a stage prop?

A rubber gun? A deactivated gun?

IC 35-47-1-5
"Firearm"
Sec. 5. "Firearm" means any weapon:
(1) that is:
(A) capable of expelling; or
(B) designed to expel; or
(2) that may readily be converted to expel;
a projectile by means of an explosion.

 

[CarmelHP]

What is meant by "black powder gun." If it does not use fixed cartridges, you do not need a LTCH.

IC 35-47-2-19
Application of chapter
Sec. 19. This chapter does not apply to any firearm not designed to use fixed cartridges or fixed ammunition, or any firearm made before January 1, 1899.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

 

[kludge]

IC 35-47-2-19
Application of chapter
Sec. 19. This chapter does not apply to any firearm not designed to use fixed cartridges or fixed ammunition, or any firearm made before January 1, 1899.

Well, I'll be. How'd I miss that?

So in other words, if I open carry a BP revolver there is no RS to stop me and ask for LTCH. In any case the case Kirk quoted above, would still apply to BP revolver, since it happened on school grounds.

For stage props I was referring to the "guns" that are designed to fire blanks that can't fire real ammunition. I guess it depends on what is meant by "readily converted". Do they mean an "average" person, or someone with knowledge and a machine shop?

 

[CarmelHP]

Well, I'll be. How'd I miss that?

So in other words, if I open carry a BP revolver there is no RS to stop me and ask for LTCH. In any case the case Kirk quoted above, would still apply to BP revolver, since it happened on school grounds.

But that gun was a Smith & Wesson .38 Special made circa 1927, therefore, not exempted from the licensing statute. Black powder guns (essentially, muzzle loaders) are exempted from the carry license requirement, but not from the school prohibition, which applies to anything meeting the firearms definition.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Right, thanks for the clarification, Carmel. "Black powder gun" is vague. "Black powder guns" can use fixed cartridges (which is what I was visualizing).

Let's say "muzzle loaders that use black powder" do not need the LTCH.

 

[pftraining_in]

That's very interesting. First time I've heard it. Strange though, because you can still mail order them, the only kind that need a 4473 are the T/C that can have rifle barrels put on them.

CVA also has some models that must be purchased on 4473s.